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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#141

Post by kristianc »

djsumdog wrote: post #16

-542 before it was locked. That's incredible. People are really really afraid to talk about this particular topic (which they don't mention in the statement), because this type of call-out to be banned happens a lot. The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is an amazing book that documents how this is happening in academia, and it's happening on the software world too. Most people in our industry, in the US, EU…

> If people start talking about the hard issues, but do so respectfully and by making arguments that are sound, we should have clear, rational and reasonable debate. A decision might be made we don't agree with, but as long as the discussion happens, everyone can learn from it and we can agree to disagree and move on.

Ultimately what happens is these issues don't get talked about.

People in the center would rather just have an easy life and not deal with the "cancelling", doxxing, or career consequences that come with having a strong opinion, so don't engage.

That means that the extreme voices on either side end up dominating the conversation.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#142

Post by MauranKilom »

forgotmypwd123 wrote: post #30

>Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change their behavior. Hang on a sec... >their behaviour. Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally? Because they said she should use the preferred gender specific pronoun when known? And…

>Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally?

It's more nuanced from what I understand^. I gather that Monica expressed the desire to find an alternative to using singular they - such as universally using pronoun-free language. Mind you, this was all in discussing a future code of conduct change and its eventual enforcement.

The topic is just very delicate, and in my eyes there is no line that you can draw where both sides are univerally happy. Words spoken/written with the best intentions and utmost respect can still leave others feel hurt or insulted, simply because there are no objective answers to certain differences in perception.

^I am not privy to "insider" info, but I have followed the situation closely and consumed most of what has been said on the metas publicly (outside of chat rooms).

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#143

Post by shadowgovt »

goatinaboat wrote: post #111
derefr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that the network effect comes from where people choose to go to ask questions. You go where you know your question has a good chance of getting answered. As such sites grow as "bases of knowledgeable people", they become a Schelling-point pulling people-with-questions toward them. That's the first-order effect. The second-order effect is that people who are familiar with one of the StackExchange site…

That is true but SE gained a critical mass of answers by encouraging one set of behaviours through its points and badges system, then pulled a bait-and-switch and told those subject matter experts that they were no longer welcome. Wrong demographic, see. SE is dying. The quality of the questions is falling because being welcoming to new users is deemed more important now than the newcomers absorbing the culture. Ques…

How does one get to the Q&A on GitHub? When I Google a question, an SE link is still the most common thing I'll get (especially for error codes).

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#144

Post by shadowgovt »

fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it.

Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#145

Post by markmark »

personjerry wrote: post #139
markmark wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they apologise? They aren't sorry they sacked this moderator. They fully stand by their decision.

Well, the title of the post is "An Update to our Community and an Apology" so we should expect an apology in there.

Yep, and they're sorry for the uneasiness and confusion. I'm saying they aren't going to apologise for the sacking itself, because they stand by it.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#146

Post by switch007 »

kupiakos wrote: post #121
thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

I disagree. This is an actual in-your-face challenge that trans people face - incorrect pronoun usage, both offline and online. Using the wrong pronoun for someone is akin to using the wrong name. It's ok if it happens accidentally, but being incorrect on purpose is quite insulting - in part because it's so simple to do the right thing. I don't want to work with jerks. It matters because even if you don't think it's…

Is your last paragraph referring to defaulting to gender-neutral after having been made aware/requested by someone, or that gendered langauge be eradicated from the English language?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#147

Post by MauranKilom »

xupybd wrote: post #17

Some useful links to the situation. (You can find all these in the responses). Monica Cellio's account: https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/stack-... A news paper article on the situation: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/stack_exchange_cont... A list of mods fired or resigned: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333965/firing-mods-... A mods reasons for leaving: https://christianity.me…

I would like to add that I found https://stats.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5765/moderato... a very comprehensive and faceted summary.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#148

Post by chrisweekly »

DanBC wrote: post #104
chrisweekly wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beg to differ. The relevant part of the top-level story boils down to "Someone was fired, and others resigned in protest / solidarity". Do you really believe that "no one" was confused? I think it's hard _not_ to read the wrong "resigned" there in this context. More relevant to the subject matter, your confident assertion, speaking for everyone, belies a lack of empathy. Finally, I find it interesting that none of…

I'm a bit confused by your post. What did you think the moderators signed? What did you think they had re-signed?

They'd "(re-)sign" their profiles with "preferred pronoun" designations, eg "he/his" or "she/her". A visible (but less extreme) show of support, vs quitting -- which for moderators who aren't even employees of SE per se, isn't even really an applicable concept.

All of which underscores the point of my original (and annoyingly if predictably downvoted) comment about there being ambiguous -- hence ironic -- use of a particular homograph.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#149

Post by jodrellblank »

forgotmypwd123 wrote: post #30

>Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change their behavior. Hang on a sec... >their behaviour. Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally? Because they said she should use the preferred gender specific pronoun when known? And…

> Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally?

In the comments to the linked question, Monica Cellio says StackOverflow have not told her what parts of the CoC she was violating. I don't think it's public knowledge why she was demodded.

(Is 'fired' an appropriate word to use, when Monica wasn't an employee?)

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#150

Post by MauranKilom »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #36

The title is misleading, this is not an apology. As a former operator of a (much smaller) community website, I understand the motives behind SE actions. They want to avoid discussions about gender-neutral pronouns and other contentious topics completely. There are only risks and no benefits for SE business in such discussions.They actually do not want discussions, just questions and answers. Jeff Atwood once wrote a…

I'm under the impression that you misunderstand the CoC update procedure. It has not been updated. SE is hellbent on updating it in the future, and they explicitly stated that they are not willing to budge an inch on its gender-/pronoun-related contents. This is not accidental, there is not one single dissident behind it but the entire company.

It will be the duty of the moderators to enforce the new CoC. The discussion in question arose in a mod-only forum (and later on an email conversation) and concerned what behaviors these rules sanction or disallow. It should be self-evident that moderators need to ask these questions and clarify these things in order to enforce them, and that none of this discussion is in itself to cause public outrage (because the public was not to know of any of this in the first place).

Public outrage was _only_ sparked when Monica was unceremoniously fired without any explanation to her or the public. Predictably, the context being described by those privy to it has resulted in lots of pronoun- and gender-related discussions all over the place, but this is neither the primary problem for SE (significant parts of the moderation force leaving is, as well as this being the ~6th community PR nightmare in 1-2 years) nor was it in any way avoidable or unpredictable based on the plans of SE.

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