An Update to Our Community and an Apology • Hacker News Board

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#121

Post by kupiakos » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

I disagree. This is an actual in-your-face challenge that trans people face - incorrect pronoun usage, both offline and online. Using the wrong pronoun for someone is akin to using the wrong name. It's ok if it happens accidentally, but being incorrect on purpose is quite insulting - in part because it's so simple to do the right thing. I don't want to work with jerks.

It matters because even if you don't think it's a big deal, it can be death by a thousand papercuts for others. Seeing "he" used as a default pronoun just reminds me that people will assume I'm a man, further entrenching this idea subconsciously that people like me don't belong in tech. When I'm misgendered online, I have an internal conversation of "Do I correct them? Do I want to be perceived as not contributing to the discussion and be punished for that? Will I be seen as a crazy SJW and attacked for it?" That's a mental stress that cisgender men simply don't have to deal with.

Use gender-neutral language by default. It's not hard, and simple mistakes are forgiven. However, if one isn't willing to put the slightest amount of effort to either avoid pronouns or use the singular they, it shows they doesn't actually care about the concerns of people unlike themselves. And that shows a lot about what kind of person they are.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#122

Post by CJefferson » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #60

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

So, you consider it your choice to decide if people should be described using Male or female pronouns, and believe it would be fascist for someone to say "actually, I'm Male. Please refer to me as he, not she?".

It just feels impolite to me to not refer to people by their gender. Is it that upsetting to give people their name and gender? What right of yours does this infringe?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#123

Post by kupiakos » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #61

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

The problem with forcing compliance is some people are naturally going to want to resist the demand regardless of their personal opinions. I took a technical writing class in college where I attempted to use "they/their" as a gender neutral pronoun. This was not a political statement, I just felt it sounded more natural. The professor objected and gave me a disproportionately poor grade, insisting that I use either "…

On the positive side, I did manage to convince my technical writing professor to allow they/them in my paper after showing recent style guide changes allowing it in formal writing. This was in 2016, though.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#124

Post by kupiakos » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #122

effingwewt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

So, you consider it your choice to decide if people should be described using Male or female pronouns, and believe it would be fascist for someone to say "actually, I'm Male. Please refer to me as he, not she?". It just feels impolite to me to not refer to people by their gender. Is it that upsetting to give people their name and gender? What right of yours does this infringe?

As a trans person, it feels impolite (well, insulting) to refer to people as the _wrong_ gender. I don't see it as impolite to avoid gendered language in the case of not knowing one's gender, and only impolite in the case of knowing one's gender if great lengths are taken to avoid gendering.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#125

Post by etchalon » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

kichik wrote: post #67

kichik wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They listened and changed it to > that behavior

Oh it's actually worse than that. The original said: > the behavior Some user named Tim changed it to "their". Full history @ https://meta.stackexchange.com/posts/334248/revisions Why would they let random people edit such a post? So weird...

That random person probably had the permission level to edit posts.

That’s how SO works.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#126

Post by rolltiide » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #103

guardiangod wrote: post #9

Is that an apology? It reads more like "I am sorry that you are angry, but we did nothing wrong so suck it lololol" I don't know if the SO mod (Cellio) is in the wrong, but they did not give any explanation why Cellio was removed. I am unconvinced by this update.

If a corporation ever admits doing something wrong, it's admissible evidence in a lawsuit against them. That's why corporations never admit any wrongdoing regardless of how obvious it is that they did. (And before anyone post the usual " corporations suck " rant, the exact same principle applies to individuals. Anybody who ever watched James Duane's "Never talk to the police" video knows why. Why would it be any diff…

100% this

Even empathy usually results in admitting a liability inducing stance

You have to just do and let everyone else wonder why

There’s no upside into explaining anything

If it ever reaches discovery and testimony in a court of law, then maybe you’ll get detailed perspectives closer to the truth.

Somewhere along the way users and consumers started imagining this stuff is actually collaborative. Its not.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#127

Post by McGlockenshire » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:25 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #60

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

> How do fascists not realize they are being such?

What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#128

Post by fencepost » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity.

I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a different non-community position before long. It seems like a poor place to have someone who's managed to drive out a significant percentage of the volunteer moderators for the whole network.

And my preferred pronoun this week is blergl.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#129

Post by VonGallifrey » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #53

luckylion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. That's not true. She was removed for asking whether, after the not-yet-current CoC was made official (which asks to use preferred pronouns) it would be allowed to use third person pronouns to circumvent the issue. Neither was preferred pronoun-usage a rule, nor had she disobeyed that rule (yet).

If you don't know someone's gender or preferred pronouns, it's reasonable to use "they/them". If someone has explicitly asked you to use "she/her", and you exclusively use "they/them", you are still not using that person's preferred pronouns .

She wanted to write in a gender-neutral style. No one should be forced to use gender pronouns. It is true that you should use the right gender pronouns if you use pronouns, but why fire her for asking about using gender-neutral writing styles in a not yet released CoC.

Also: They misgendered her in the "apology".

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#130

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:29 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #87

guardiangod wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for doing this. I thought i was stuck in a time loop aka Groundhog Day when I saw the thread in HN's front page, and my post was timestamped at 7 hours (instead of 2 days) ago. I believe this is an important issue. Regardless of whether SO is right or not, they do owe their community (of which I am not a part of) an explanation. Unlike the Google's gender controversy, SO is mostly operated by unpaid volunte…

(Yes, the software relativizes the timestamps on a thread while re-upping a submission; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20169818 . It's confusing but keeping the original timestamps is worse and we've yet to figure out a better way to do it. I suppose this needs to go in the FAQ.)

I don't understand why you don't have banners, on stories that have had editorial changes, to say what the editorial changes are. For example (not suggestions for text) "story reposted with different timestamps", "title changed from 'X is the best thing eva'", "link changed from 'www.superspammy.co.net'", or whatever.

Is transparency of editorial actions bad somehow?