An Update to Our Community and an Apology • Hacker News Board

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#191

Post by flippinburgers » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:44 AM UTC

MauranKilom wrote: post #142

forgotmypwd123 wrote: post #30

>Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change their behavior. Hang on a sec... >their behaviour. Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally? Because they said she should use the preferred gender specific pronoun when known? And…

>Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally? It's more nuanced from what I understand^. I gather that Monica expressed the desire to find an alternative to using singular they - such as universally using pronoun-free language. Mind you, this was all in discussing a future code of conduct change and its eventual enforcement. The topic is just very delicate, and in my eyes there is no…

As I understand it she wanted to avoid using any specifically gendered pronoun and be general in her responses, but was told that she must use the preferred pronoun. Totally draconian if you ask me.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#192

Post by flippinburgers » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:50 AM UTC

yourbandsucks wrote: post #186

dragonwriter wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted. No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns. But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care? We need to think of a way to rise above without thr…

Honestly it is very strange to me that this is being downvoted. The level of outrage that I see is not at all proportional to the number of people affected. This is a very strange phenomenon. I seriously feel that the most heated carriers of torches in this scenario are people who gravitate towards "power play" moments and have happily found a niche where they can be ruthless in their assault.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#193

Post by dang » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

throwaway314pi wrote: post #188

shadowgovt wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

I’ve never met someone who uses a pronoun other than he, she, or they. Does that mean all other pronouns are “derivation-free nonsense”? My preferred pronoun is blergl.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#194

Post by xienze » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:51 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #144

fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

> Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly

Isn't that what "gender-fluid" is?

> or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

Isn't that what pronouns like "xir" are all about?

You seem more hung up on "have you personally met someone like that?" than "do these people really exist?" The answer to the latter question is yes, they do.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#195

Post by AlexB138 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:55 AM UTC

yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

MauranKilom wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression that you misunderstand the CoC update procedure. It has not been updated . SE is hellbent on updating it in the future, and they explicitly stated that they are not willing to budge an inch on its gender-/pronoun-related contents. This is not accidental, there is not one single dissident behind it but the entire company. It will be the duty of the moderators to enforce the new CoC. The discus…

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

Because life isn't that simple. To one group "misgendering" people is harassment and therefore not nice. To another group being forced to speak as if someone is a gender you do not believe them to be is patronizing and not nice. No one is intentionally being unkind, other than the people who like to wade into the culture war

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#196

Post by mattigames » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:56 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #144

fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

Yes, they proudly call themselves gender-fluid and state that they change pronouns frequently.

And many state to use non-existing words as pronouns such as xhy, requiring a mental effort to remember a new word they invented and also to remember to whom that word is associated, so the satire of using blerg as pronoun is spot-on while also offensive to some.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#197

Post by AgentME » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:56 AM UTC

McGlockenshire wrote: post #127

effingwewt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

> How do fascists not realize they are being such? What an outrageous level of hyperbole. It is not fascism to ask others to not intentionally misgender people.

Agreed. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading most of the commentary here on HN or elsewhere about this.

I get that there's some details about this case that are a bit ambiguous, but it doesn't seem obviously worth a witchhunt of SO. If it seemed to SO like a moderator was looking for loopholes for not enforcing a CoC, then I don't think it's wrong for them to consider the moderator as working in bad faith and not moderator material.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#198

Post by bchanudet » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 1:58 AM UTC

braindeath wrote: post #131

ictebres wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t refuse to use someone’s preferred pronoun just because you want to. If someone wants to be called he, using them is insulting and demeaning. You would be literally not accepting how he is. Obviously this is not the case in generic writing. But I don’t think that is how 2 people want to communicate.

Yes! I absolutely can refuse to use someone's "preferred pronoun." I summarily reject your assertion that using the gender neutral and grammatically correct "they" in place of "he"/"she" (not them) to refer to anyone is ever insulting or demeaning. You can say it's insulting and I just don't agree that is true in general. Yelling loudly and with outrage doesn't make your claim stronger than mine. I am not rejecting a…

As you said, race, religions, genders and so on are all about identity. And people are defined by their identities.

If you know the person you're talking about is a cisgender woman, using the gender-neutral pronoun will feel insulting, because by assuming she may or may not be a woman, you look like you're not accepting her as a woman.

It gets yet more offending if you're doing this for a transitioning person. The change of pronoun is their first way to make their transition known, well before having expensive surgery or getting a court order for having their name changed. Refusing the use of their preferred pronoun means you don't accept their transition nor their new gender.

Whether these people are here to see your messages or to hear you talk doesn't matter.

You could be as insulting when talking about ethnicity or religion, in some way. But gender is special because it finds its way in every conversation at some point. Pronouns are used everywhere and every time, you cannot escape it.

Finally, it all boils down to what it costs you not using the preferred pronoun of someone, when you know it. What are you winning for doing this? What's the expected outcome of this "active and voluntary refusal" for you?

I don't think you assume all people you encounter on HN are bald and blind just because you don't know the color of their hair or their eyes. Why would you be so adamant doing this specifically for their gender?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#199

Post by swebs » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:05 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #144

fencepost wrote: post #128

This really seems like a "respect mah authoritah!" situation followed by "oh crap it's blowing up, apply more power! This will not be re-litigated." Looking from the outside as someone who's mostly ignored SE for the last few years, this feels to me like something personal combined with making an opportunity. I can't help but feel that the current "Director of Community" at the core of this will be moving to a differ…

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

>Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly

Yes, these people often use the label "genderfluid"

>or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

Yes, just go to Twitter, click any trending political hashtag, and read the bios of the people posting there.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#200

Post by tmp20191006cars » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #169

yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

Might I suggest that most people who insist on using pronouns derived from one's biological sex (rather than gender) are not attempting to engage in harassment, but are simply refusing to concede a currently unsettled political and societal question?