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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#891

Post by flukus »

mav3rick wrote: post #694
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

Do you know about Gandhi's nonviolence and civil disobedience movement ? Not saying this is what's required right now. But ultimately it was that that turned the British public opinion and the Crown was forced to withdraw from the colonies.

Civil disobedience worked because it became unprofitable for Britain to stay in the short to medium term, for China it's a territorial claim and they're happy to wait out any lost profits.

Gandhi's first stint at civil disobedience also landed him in jail for 6 years and there was a lot of violence that also played it's role in Indian independence.

Even with an Afghanistan style insurrection it's hard to see China bleeding enough money to give in, so I'm not sure violent means are much of an answer either.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#892

Post by flukus »

jonasft wrote: post #888

Serious question: Why aren't more from the police protesting as well, and supporting their citizens? I expect it is from fear of the government? What would they do to police unwilling to perform their duty? I wonder, because you have to assume some percentage of the police is in agreement with the protestors. Or maybe it is because right now, no matter what their opinion is, the need for order and police is greater t…

No idea what their pay structure is like, but if they're getting paid overtime they're creating a direct cost for the government and making a profit at the same time. Their protest can be as simple as turning up and doing a half-assed job.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#893

Post by bsder »

cwkoss wrote: post #841
bsder wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hogwash. My military-trained father-in-law accidentally discharged his handgun inside the house while cleaning it. The bullet ricocheted and could have killed anybody. It was a manufacturing defect. All those guns were recalled and replaced 2 months later.

He was cleaning a loaded gun?

We gave him a lot of hell thinking he did exactly that.

He claimed he unloaded it and checked he unloaded it.

A couple weeks later every single one of those guns was recalled and replaced by the manufacturer. The gun, itself, apparently had a defect wherein it could pop a round loose, hold it where you couldn't see it, and then chamber it if you knocked it a bit. I have no idea how this could possibly occur, but the manufacturer actually claimed this and wound up having to spend enough money that something wasn't right with those handguns.

Fortunately, he adhered to standard discipline and made sure the gun was never pointed at anybody. So, when it did go off, nobody was in line of fire. However, it did ricochet and still could have caused quite a bit of harm.

Always adhering to discipline doesn't make probabilities zero--it just minimizes them.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#894

Post by kristiandupont »

jki275 wrote: post #444
kristiandupont wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be misreading what "increase the threshold" means, but it seems to me that if people were armed, the tanks were more likely to roll in quickly, not less.

No, he's correct, and it means exactly the opposite. The armed citizen is a deterrent to rolling tanks at all.

Well we clearly can't know how China would react, but I personally doubt that statement.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#895

Post by jacobush »

MS90 wrote: post #630
jacobush wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small caliber rounds. Tasers may come in the future. But back when that incident happened, tasers were not a thing. Edit: I am torn on tasers. It’s a viable tool. I am just very pessimistic. I fully expect them to used VERY liberally in all sorts of situations where we got along very fine without them. It’s yet another way of dehumanising an encounter

Yeah, they do seem like they get used a lot here in the US. That said, I'd much rather be dehumanized with a taser than with a gun.

Of course!

It's just that I think you will be attacked with a taser instead of being asked to lie still on the ground until they can handcuff you. Suspect neutralized. Or tased in the cruiser for being unruly. Except they were just angry with you. And so on. Unless tasing comes with the kind of paperwork that comes with discharging a firearm, I think it will be misused a lot.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#896

Post by read_if_gay_ »

Illniyar wrote: post #324
hanniabu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed There are many impromptu homemade devices that can be used to deter tanks

Against modern tanks, there really aren't. Even military grade explosive mines don't stop a modern tank ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-IED_equipment#Mine_Res... ) - not to mention things that go in the frontline in urban areas like armored bulldozers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_bulldozer )

What about the IEDs used in the middle east? How hard is it to put one of those together?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#897

Post by Legogris »

UIZealot wrote: post #416
Legogris wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.

I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong K…

I can not point to any public references, but I have met individuals who have been involved in cases with people disappearing. When their relatives reach out to investigate their disappearances, there will be explanations along the lines that they eloped or disappeared at their own accord and they have no idea where they went. People who have fears that this could happen to them will agree with their SOs on hand signs and codes they can use when walking past security cameras to indicate that they are being forced somewhere. These cases don't end up in the news.

> It does not take away from the fact that Hong Kong still has a functioning judiciary system independent from mainland China, and the vast vast majority of Hong Kong citizens have no reason to fear the same fate.

This is the case today. The proposed extradition treaty would flip that around significantly.

Also, the treaty has not been withdrawn at all, it has been "suspended", meaning it can still be picked up again at any time when/if the controversy has died down. Lam said a month ago that she plans to withdraw the bill, but that has not yet happened.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#898

Post by easytiger »

simonh wrote: post #887
easytiger wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that is acceptable? I think it irrelevant. You don't hit a guy with a gun pointed at you with a pipe and expect not to be shot. The wider situation is not relevant unless the chap wanted to be shot. > but they are backup not front line. Also incorrect. I see armed patrols every day

Having a gun and pointing it at people does not give anyone the right to shoot them. That last comment was referring specifically to police in riot situation.

> Having a gun and pointing it at people does not give anyone the right to shoot them.

It's pretty clear at this point you have no desire to engage in a rational discussion.

Are you telling me you would go up to someone with a gun drawn and physically attack them, whilst your friends are brutally beating his colleague 1meter away, and assume you would be under no threat of being shot?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#899

Post by UIZealot »

pimmen wrote: post #889
UIZealot wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the independent judiciary which the CCP is trying the dismantle now with the extradition bill That narrative is never supported by the facts, and the extradition treaty has been withdrawn. You keep saying it does not make it true. > the British also made large scale election reforms After the signing of the Sino-British Joint Declaration. It's like agreeing to sell your company, then doubling the salary of every em…

> That narrative is never supported by the facts, and the extradition treaty has been withdrawn. You keep saying it does not make it true. It’s still not withdrawn, Ms. Lam has only promised she will. But the bill is still in second reading. > After the signing of the Sino-British Joint Declaration. It's like agreeing to sell your company, then doubling the salary of every employee before handing over the company to…

> It’s still not withdrawn, Ms. Lam has only promised she will. But the bill is still in second reading.

The chief executive publicly announced the withdrawal of the bill. It's as good as done, technicalities notwithstanding.

> these are people who’s freedom and independent judiciary made them an attractive spot for foreign investment in the first place.

What's your point? They had been that attractive spot for foreign investment before the expansion of rights.

> With democracy,

You seem to think democracy is this panacea that heals all ills. I have a magical bridge in Brooklyn you will surely be interested in.

> such a pointless bill as the extradition bill

The bill was proposed as a direct response to someone committing a crime in Taiwan and fleeing to Hong Kong. See the point there?

> And, a democracy has checks and balances to investigate police departments for excessive violence and corruption,

I admit that Hong Kong is not a full democracy, but Hong Kong already has all these things, and they work remarkable well, in fact much better than in most countries one might consider full democracies. Again, one would have to be really blinded by ideology to not see that.

> I can publish a full page ad in every US newspaper calling for the US to drop all charges against Snowden and have absolutely no repercussions from the US government. I can’t do that in China calling for the release of Gui.

But you can do that in Hong Kong. There you have it, one country, two systems, it's alive and well.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#900

Post by teekno »

sixothree wrote: post #624
philliphaydon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full video shows a officer on the ground being beaten with sticks. So it wasn’t just a kid swinging at the officer.

Could you imagine what would happen in America if an officer was on the ground being beaten?

Let's not use the American police systems as a measuring stick.
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