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Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

nytimes.com

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Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#61

Post by mirimir »

jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

Thanks for writing it.

This is certainly disturbing news. And it's great to know about it. But I'm left feeling hopeless. Because we've been fighting this bullshit for decades, with little to show for it. And personally, there's nothing actionable.

So it goes.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#62

Post by kabdib »

cgriswald wrote: post #57
kazagistar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how the constitution is remotely relevant here. It's clearly not protecting us from this in it's current state. If we want protections against secret government gag orders, we have to vote for people who will oppose them, which is a really small number of people indeed, or else vote to change the constitution to actually start protecting these rights. And if this turns out to be impossible, what is at fa…

The Constitution is only a piece of paper. Lots of people tell you this, usually when they're arguing against gun ownership; but they completely miss the point of what that means. In their minds that means, "So we should just do whatever we want." Everything "enshrined in The Constitution" is no such thing. It's enshrined in our culture, and individual hearts and minds. That's why it's so incredibly stupid and naive…

"Democracy is government for the people, by the people, on the principle that the people should get the kind of government that they deserve, good and hard."

[wish i could attribute this, but i don't remember where i first heard it]

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#63

Post by guelo »

RonaldSchleifer wrote: post #35
jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

Thank you for your reporting on this, even if it just seems to chronicle the ever accelerating deconstruction of the Constitution. Even if American Constitutionalists were able to walk back these types of clear abuses on the social compact that keeps peace by two steps, it will only be without realizing that five steps were taken towards the progress of disassembling the Constitution. An old, irrelevant, outdated doc…

Not sure what you're talking about, the courts have ruled that NSLs are constitutional.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#64

Post by hobs »

GhettoMaestro wrote: post #58
cameldrv wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a gag order can be reasonable. Wiretaps with warrants usually have them. IMO, there should be no gag order, and the subject of the subpoena should be required to be notified and allowed to challenge the subpoena if it is issued without a judge. Gag orders should be allowed, but only if signed off on by a judge, and only for a reasonable amount of time to complete an investigation. If the government gets your inf…

> If the government gets your information, and decides not to bring charges, you should have the right to know about that at some point. Disagree. There are numerous cases where it takes multiple investigations to "get" a career criminal (think organized crime). If each batch of subpoenas or sealed warrants were exposed even when there is no charge this time, that gives said suspect a very nice opportunity to clean u…

And then the obvious next conclusion is you can argue with a judge on whether or not that's reasonable.

We already have laws on the books to deal with organized crime - why would we give up our rights so that something we have no evidence for might happen?

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#65

Post by celticmusic »

mschuster91 wrote: post #14
burtonator wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a democracy, just a very sick one. The United States is like a 243-year-old engine with a desperate need of an oil change. That oil is us... ...ok. Horrible metaphor but you get it. Not calling you out just saying just don't let cynicism take hold. Remember, we pushed Bush out and he was a war criminal.

> Remember, we pushed Bush out and he was a war criminal But never tried him, Rumsfeld or the rest - the only ones who really got a kick to their butts were those implicated in Abu Ghraib. And now you elected a president who not only is a serial liar, probably a sexual assaulter ("grab them by the ..."), but also someone who is involved in multiple lawsuits and probably either unwittingly (the satellite photo) or wil…

having a disrespect of women doesn't imply that he runs around sexually assaulting them.

There are plenty of women I have no respect for, in none of those cases has it caused me to even have the urge to sexually assault them.

It's important to keep your objectivity.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#66

Post by president »

situational87 wrote: post #2

We can't keep pretending this is still a Democracy when we have a completely unaccountable NSA/CIA/FBI that seems to repeatedly hide their mistakes and the dubious legality of their sources & methods behind the classification and national security walls.

What would be the alternative? For a functional national security program, some aspects need to be secret from the general public in order to protect against compromise.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#67

Post by bilbo0s »

Porthos9K wrote: post #60
jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

This is an excellent and deeply disturbing article, but all I can do in response right now is suspect that if J. Edgar Hoover were still alive to see what shenanigans the modern FBI gets up to when nobody is looking, he would wholeheartedly approve. It's obvious that the agency has learned all the wrong lessons from the exposure of COINTELPRO. The FBI is still The House J. Edgar Built, and Congress ought to tear it d…

>Congress ought to tear it down.

ABSCAM.

There is a Lavrentiy Beria everywhere. (There's probably thousands of Lavrentiy Beria's in the US alone, truth be told.) With the threat of ABSCAM-like ops looming out there, I wouldn't count on politicians saving us. Just ask black and hispanic males how well appealing to politicians for help from malicious prosecution has worked out for them historically.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#68

Post by mirimir »

RonaldSchleifer wrote: post #35
jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

Thank you for your reporting on this, even if it just seems to chronicle the ever accelerating deconstruction of the Constitution. Even if American Constitutionalists were able to walk back these types of clear abuses on the social compact that keeps peace by two steps, it will only be without realizing that five steps were taken towards the progress of disassembling the Constitution. An old, irrelevant, outdated doc…

The Constitution still says what it always said. The problem is that there's been 243 years of interpretation. So what it effectively says in many cases bears little relationship to it.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#69

Post by drewmol »

jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

Fwiw, it was the PATRIOT Act, passed shortly after the events of 9/11/2001, that allows for these administrative subpoenas and gag orders and removed any effective judicial oversight. Many of those provisions in the act were set to expire and those expirations were extended by both president Bush and Obama. IIRC the AG or their subordinates have to notify the judiciary of these subpoenas but can issue a gag order along with the disclosure effectively removing any judicial oversight.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#70

Post by chrischen »

drewmol wrote: post #69
jenvalentino wrote: post #15

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

Fwiw, it was the PATRIOT Act, passed shortly after the events of 9/11/2001, that allows for these administrative subpoenas and gag orders and removed any effective judicial oversight. Many of those provisions in the act were set to expire and those expirations were extended by both president Bush and Obama. IIRC the AG or their subordinates have to notify the judiciary of these subpoenas but can issue a gag order alo…

The problem is anything that helps someone do their job more easily will get approved.
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