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Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

nytimes.com

51–60 of 125 posts

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#51

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

As @mLuby says below, recipients of NSLs "can't reveal they've been gagged, or what type of data they were compelled to reveal."

Has evidence from an NSL ever been introduced into court by a prosecutor? It seems like this gag order serves to allow the FBI to pursue parallel construction and then keep their tracks covered in doing so.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how the constitution is remotely relevant here. It's clearly not protecting us from this in it's current state. If we want protections against secret government gag orders, we have to vote for people who will oppose them, which is a really small number of people indeed, or else vote to change the constitution to actually start protecting these rights. And if this turns out to be impossible, what is at fa…

You're right. Discussing the shortcomings of the constitution is sort of viewed as a faux pax in American society, but the fact is that the current government, including its weaknesses, is an outcome of it. Discussions of how it could be improved, particularly given the almost 250 years of data we have, should be welcome. Another strongly American social phenomenon is viewing the government as an intrusive enemy. The…

... we at least need to talk about how the government can be improved ...

I would amend that to "... we at least need to talk about how the government can be improved or eliminated ..."

One has to consider what the fundamental basis for government even is and how government can have any authority at all, and what the limits on that authority are.

I would encourage everybody reading this to go read The Law[1] by Bastiat, for a highly cogent analysis of these issues. The entire essay is a delight, but one point he makes stands out to me:

What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force — for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups.

If you adhere to this viewpoint, the "government" (which we usually take as a proxy for "the law") is only an extension of existing individual rights, and cannot have any authority or right that an individual doesn't have. Of course one can also get into a different discussion of whether or not it is even correct to treat "the government" (or "The State") as the natural (or only) proxy for what we mean by "the law".

[1]: http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#54

We can't keep pretending this is still a Democracy when we have a completely unaccountable NSA/CIA/FBI that seems to repeatedly hide their mistakes and the dubious legality of their sources & methods behind the classification and national security walls.

Are they really unaccountable? The silence of people seems to affirm their choices.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#55
post #16

I spent a long time in the hosting industry, most of which was in early 00s. When the feds couldn't get a court to order to hand over data we simply sold the data to them. They paid, quite handsomely at times.

This is pretty telling of the present state of U.S. law... there's no law against this (even today).

The existing laws that protect privacy and what can be done with information companies collect have never been updated post computer revolution... the same generation that was in power before then is still in power, and they've never had any interest in changing that.

The US government started failing a long time ago, and everyone in that generation is either part of the problem or unwilling to admit it IS a problem.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a democracy, just a very sick one. The United States is like a 243-year-old engine with a desperate need of an oil change. That oil is us... ...ok. Horrible metaphor but you get it. Not calling you out just saying just don't let cynicism take hold. Remember, we pushed Bush out and he was a war criminal.

> Remember, we pushed Bush out and he was a war criminal But never tried him, Rumsfeld or the rest - the only ones who really got a kick to their butts were those implicated in Abu Ghraib. And now you elected a president who not only is a serial liar, probably a sexual assaulter ("grab them by the ..."), but also someone who is involved in multiple lawsuits and probably either unwittingly (the satellite photo) or wil…

"All's well that ends well". There will be no justice, because justice would require repudiation. The main job of the President is to be a garbage bag for public outrage, tied off and thrown away when full. The truck comes around every 4 years, but the trash hasn't always started to smell.

Err I mean... Didn't you hear that GWB is actually a pretty down to earth guy now that he's out of office, and is even friends with Michelle Obama? Who knew he was so personable?

Trump is not president in spite of the problems you have listed - Trump is president because of them. Abortion and how people pee are of the same exact vein - deeply personal topics formed around dividing people. From the perspective of someone supporting Trump, the other team being frustrated is a feature - consider the past 8 years when they were in that position, as told by their media.

Continuing to draw attention to deliberately polarizing topics (as the media does) plays right into the hands of the status quo, by distracting from discussion of longstanding overarching policy (see: bikeshedding). The three letter agencies certainly form their own entrenched interests, but they're also fully supported by the larger economic interests that put on those political races ("propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship"). Specific companies may do better or worse depending on which team wins the race, but they all agree that ever more centralized control is needed. The immediate goal is maintenance of the US economic empire, but it is also insurance for keeping the mobs at bay in the face of rising inequality.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your reporting on this, even if it just seems to chronicle the ever accelerating deconstruction of the Constitution. Even if American Constitutionalists were able to walk back these types of clear abuses on the social compact that keeps peace by two steps, it will only be without realizing that five steps were taken towards the progress of disassembling the Constitution. An old, irrelevant, outdated doc…

I'm not sure how the constitution is remotely relevant here. It's clearly not protecting us from this in it's current state. If we want protections against secret government gag orders, we have to vote for people who will oppose them, which is a really small number of people indeed, or else vote to change the constitution to actually start protecting these rights. And if this turns out to be impossible, what is at fa…

The Constitution is only a piece of paper. Lots of people tell you this, usually when they're arguing against gun ownership; but they completely miss the point of what that means. In their minds that means, "So we should just do whatever we want."

Everything "enshrined in The Constitution" is no such thing. It's enshrined in our culture, and individual hearts and minds. That's why it's so incredibly stupid and naive to push for things that are unconstitutional: it means you've dismantled your respect for the ideas in the constitution in your own mind, and you're cool with others, even your enemies, dismantling it in theirs. Usually you do this for some short-term, inadequate political reason (vague promises about controlling guns or banning abortion or taxing rich folks).

The Constitution isn't inadequate. We are, because we have no respect for the rights of others when it comes to what we think is best for everyone. We are, because we believe the lies that are pumped at us 24 hours a day. We are, because we argue that the Constitution is just a piece of paper when it gets in the way of what we want.

It's not about The Constitution. It's about people generally having the government they deserve.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#58
post #32

A gag order can be reasonable: "give us what you have on user John Smith birthday 1/1/1950 but don't tell him anything" makes sense if you're, say, investigating a criminal ring John is part of. What is unreasonable is that companies can't reveal they've been gagged, or what type of data they were compelled to reveal, even after the fact. Companies should be allowed to say "we have disclosed access logs, location his…

Yes, a gag order can be reasonable. Wiretaps with warrants usually have them. IMO, there should be no gag order, and the subject of the subpoena should be required to be notified and allowed to challenge the subpoena if it is issued without a judge. Gag orders should be allowed, but only if signed off on by a judge, and only for a reasonable amount of time to complete an investigation. If the government gets your inf…

> If the government gets your information, and decides not to bring charges, you should have the right to know about that at some point.

Disagree. There are numerous cases where it takes multiple investigations to "get" a career criminal (think organized crime). If each batch of subpoenas or sealed warrants were exposed even when there is no charge this time, that gives said suspect a very nice opportunity to clean up loose ends.

TLDR: If people know they are being actively looked at they will attempt to destroy/suppress/hide evidence.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#59
Seriously, we need to kill off this warrant workaround that the US gov has decided is valid.

Almost every product you buy now ends up sending your data to some company, and the government has decided that means you have no expectation of privacy, which is clearly nonsense.

Re: Secret FBI Subpoenas Scoop Up Personal Data from Scores of Companies

#60

Hi. I'm the reporter on this story. Thanks for discussing it! I thought it might be helpful for me to make a couple points. First, national security letters have been around, AND controversial, for years now. A number of tech companies have fought the gag orders. The news here is really that we are seeing for the first time which other specific companies get a lot of these — especially banks, credit agencies and so f…

This is an excellent and deeply disturbing article, but all I can do in response right now is suspect that if J. Edgar Hoover were still alive to see what shenanigans the modern FBI gets up to when nobody is looking, he would wholeheartedly approve. It's obvious that the agency has learned all the wrong lessons from the exposure of COINTELPRO.

The FBI is still The House J. Edgar Built, and Congress ought to tear it down.

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