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Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

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Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#51

Post by pinkfoot »

dragonsh wrote: post #47
dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

> Violence can never be a solution Clearly you missed WWI and WWII.

Violence, sadly, is almost always the solution. A tough pill to swallow.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#52

Post by mrhappyunhappy »

dragonsh wrote: post #47
dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as…

Actually, violence is at the heart of every revolution and is absolutely the answer when facing tyrants.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#53

Post by artsyca »

msla wrote: post #43
arcturus17 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

I think humans have become less prone to cruelty over the centuries. Bear-baiting was a common sport; these days, I bet most of you will have to look up what it even was, and will be horrified to learn about it. War remains horrible, but it is no longer fought within grabbing range with great big hammers and sharpened pieces of metal. Humans aren't just genetics: We're culture and, perhaps, epigenetics as well, and c…

Anyway you slice it, we are all reflections of one consciousness spreading its own message through mass media, you and I are not as separate as we may infer from sensory stimuli -- people are awakening to this idea more and more be it consciously or subconsciously and our unity will triumph over forces seeking to profit from artificial division or subjugation

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#54

Post by dirtyid »

ephemeralism wrote: post #42
dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

Do you have a source for this claim that Beijing instructed her to not give in to any demands?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-china-e...

>The Chinese central government rejected Lam’s proposal to withdraw the extradition bill and ordered her not to yield to any of the protesters’ other demands at that time, three individuals with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#55

Post by tony »

Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in the day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%...

There's an important political figure in the history of modern China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen

He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People

To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was Cantonese, like many of HK people. He has a University in GZ named after him!

If you would like to learn more about history of China this professor is fantastic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum, in particular, The Fall and Rise of China The Teaching Company, 2010 is really good. It's on audible.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#56

Post by Retric »

arcturus17 wrote: post #31
artsyca wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this factors in but I want to offer my intuitive sense of the situation and how it differs from earlier political phenomena -- 1989 is 30 years ago it may as well be 300 and 1939 is a millennium away at best The difference between then and now is the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness (recommended reading: Marshall McLuhan: Understanding Media) If the medium is the message as it…

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

I think “human consciousness” is perhaps a poor way to describe the core idea. When you put on a glove you stop thinking about your hand as the flesh inside the glove, but rather as including this new exoskeleton. Technology gets integrated in a similar fashion.

“I will call you back” is arguably not just a linguistic shortcut for “I will initiate the process that starts a phone call.” Rather it’s an inclusion of technical capacity as part your your idea of self. Building on that idea gets you into some odd places.

Anyway, I suspect people would have quickly used cell phones in a similar fashion if someone had somehow been selling similarly useful and affordable devices 3000 years ago.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#57

Post by indymike »

ackbar03 wrote: post #18
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone translate / explain [five demands, not one less]? From the article: “Apart from the formal withdrawal of the legislation, the protesters have asked for the government to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate police conduct in tackling the protests, grant amnesty to those who have been arrested, stop characterising the protests as riots, and restart the city’s stalled political reform process.” A…

Third and Fourth are ridiculous. I'm sorry but you don't set things on fire on the streets, bite people's finger off, throw petrol bombs, tie up people at the airport and say hey guys please grant amnesty, this wasn't a riot. Please grow up and take responsibility. If you choose to make those actions you take the consequences for them. Fifth, I can understand and dialogue can start and bickering in legislation, whate…

It is not an amnesty. It is a necessary condition for a return to peace. There is zero incentive to stop for the protesters if they are going to be jailed for protesting. The alternative is an ever escalating oppression-protest cycle.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#58

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #48
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong almost passed a law allowing extradition to China, a country lacking the rule of law. This is why the legal code failed to mollify the population. It was the law itself the protesters were protecting.

Some western countries have extradition treaties with mainland China. Beyond the obvious lack of trust the issue with such treaty is the procedure. Indeed it could give a say to HK courts or it could simply create a simple procedure where HK courts have no say beyond checking that the right forms were filled. I don't know how the bill was drafted. In general, it is not unreasonable for HK to have extradition procedur…

> Some western countries have extradition treaties with mainland China

Few, and with strict legal and political supervision [1]. The proposed law would have single-handedly smothered Hong Kong’s rule of law and stability. It was a stupid, unnecessary move pursued solely for Xi’s political concerns.

> HK is formally part of the PRC

Hong Kong is Chinese territory from a military perspective. Civically, legally and administratively, it is separate.

Hong Kongers used to identify as Chinese. But due to Xi’s hamfistedness over the past few months, that is no longer the case.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_China

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#59

Post by kristiandupont »

Retric wrote: post #56
arcturus17 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

I think “human consciousness” is perhaps a poor way to describe the core idea. When you put on a glove you stop thinking about your hand as the flesh inside the glove, but rather as including this new exoskeleton. Technology gets integrated in a similar fashion. “I will call you back” is arguably not just a linguistic shortcut for “I will initiate the process that starts a phone call.” Rather it’s an inclusion of tec…

Are you, by any chance, a Scott McCloud fan?

http://vickyteinaki.com/2014/uploads/phenomenology.png

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