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Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

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Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over pork? Hope not. Bidding war for Brazilian pork exports, perhaps.

When I wrote my reply the comment I replied to only contained its first three lines. There was nothing about pork in it then. It was edited since then.

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#42
post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

Do you have a source for this claim that Beijing instructed her to not give in to any demands?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this factors in but I want to offer my intuitive sense of the situation and how it differs from earlier political phenomena -- 1989 is 30 years ago it may as well be 300 and 1939 is a millennium away at best The difference between then and now is the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness (recommended reading: Marshall McLuhan: Understanding Media) If the medium is the message as it…

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

I think humans have become less prone to cruelty over the centuries. Bear-baiting was a common sport; these days, I bet most of you will have to look up what it even was, and will be horrified to learn about it. War remains horrible, but it is no longer fought within grabbing range with great big hammers and sharpened pieces of metal. Humans aren't just genetics: We're culture and, perhaps, epigenetics as well, and culture plays a big role in psychology.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone translate / explain [five demands, not one less]? From the article: “Apart from the formal withdrawal of the legislation, the protesters have asked for the government to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate police conduct in tackling the protests, grant amnesty to those who have been arrested, stop characterising the protests as riots, and restart the city’s stalled political reform process.” A…

The problem is that some of these demands are unrealistic and some are downright unreasonable. Full democracy is a legitimate demand but one that you need to be extremely optimistic, to say the least, to believe that the central government will agree to budge on. On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable. There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message…

Wait. You think wanting the government to change (democracy) is a legitimate demand, but wanting them to stop calling protests riots is unreasonable?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec. Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.

Well, the party has stated loud and clear that China will fight America (and the evil West) no matter what, at all costs and to the very end.

Soviet communists also used to say this.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#47
post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this.

This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country.

For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as symbolic defeat and for Hong Kong Chinese citizens it will be a symbolic win.

As it is said in order to win larger battle one needs to lose smaller one, extradition bill was already dead, now it's withdrawn until it's introduced by someone else later. In larger picture it will be sacrificing pawn.

If the violent protest continue, then it will be seen as challenging one country two system as the Hong Kong CEO proclaimed in her pre-recorded message. She is just saying in an indirect way this is her last ditch effort to salvage the situation.

Hope this brings down the tempers and hopefully this put an end to violent protests, which has destroyed city and society. Violence can never be a solution, only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand HK law correctly there are 2 offences: taking part in a an "illegal assembly" and "rioting". Rioting involves violence and I don't see the government budge on that. The fact that the protesters' demands mention a blanket amnesty and use the term 'riot' makes the demand unpalatable. Regarding illegal assemblies there might be leeway in how strictly people are charged, or whether charges are dropped in…

Hong Kong almost passed a law allowing extradition to China, a country lacking the rule of law. This is why the legal code failed to mollify the population. It was the law itself the protesters were protecting.

Some western countries have extradition treaties with mainland China.

Beyond the obvious lack of trust the issue with such treaty is the procedure. Indeed it could give a say to HK courts or it could simply create a simple procedure where HK courts have no say beyond checking that the right forms were filled. I don't know how the bill was drafted.

In general, it is not unreasonable for HK to have extradition procedures with the rest of China at large (mainland, Taiwan, Macau) but again, the devil is in the details.

(Note that HK is formally part of the PRC, so saying "HK extradition to China" may ruffle some feathers).

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#49
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over pork? Hope not. Bidding war for Brazilian pork exports, perhaps.

Pork consumption 2016 in metric tons: China 54,070,000 America 9,452,000 Brazil 2,811,000 It's estimated that the supply gap will be 20,000,000 tons in 2020, I don't think Brazil can supply that even if they ditch pork. The whole planet can't supply it. https://www.statista.com/statistics/237619/export-of-pork-in...

I was in China for 3 months this year. Both rural and urban areas. People said "You will never be hungry in China" and they are right.

They are enough substitutes for pork, many of them just as delicious.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone translate / explain [five demands, not one less]? From the article: “Apart from the formal withdrawal of the legislation, the protesters have asked for the government to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate police conduct in tackling the protests, grant amnesty to those who have been arrested, stop characterising the protests as riots, and restart the city’s stalled political reform process.” A…

The problem is that some of these demands are unrealistic and some are downright unreasonable. Full democracy is a legitimate demand but one that you need to be extremely optimistic, to say the least, to believe that the central government will agree to budge on. On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable. There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message…

Those demands essentially amount to amnesty for protest-related crime and civil diobedience, an attempt to avoid a post-protest "reprisal" regime.
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