Live data from Hacker News

Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

scmp.com

31–40 of 348 posts

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#31
post #13
post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

I'm not sure how this factors in but I want to offer my intuitive sense of the situation and how it differs from earlier political phenomena -- 1989 is 30 years ago it may as well be 300 and 1939 is a millennium away at best The difference between then and now is the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness (recommended reading: Marshall McLuhan: Understanding Media) If the medium is the message as it…

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness

I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and collective constructs such as "human rights", which are far from permanent. It is hardly our evovled 21st century post-modernist souls keeping us prosperous and peaceful - we are fundamentally not different from the Romans, who enslaved people and had them mauled by lions in giant arenas. Or hey, the Nazis, which were a thing like 70 years ago - practically yesterday.

Also, tell Beijing about the wonderful droplets of color that are the people of Hong Kong and see what they think. They'll probably laugh heartily while they order their tank commanders to raze the city, if they become persuaded that that's what needs to be done to fulfill their vision of a dominant China.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#32
Transcript of Lam's speech:

Fellow citizens,

For more than two months, protests arising from the Fugitive Offenders Bill have continued. Our citizens, police and reporters have been injured during violent incidents. There have been chaotic scenes at the airport and MTR stations; roads and tunnels have been suddenly blocked, causing delay and inconvenience to daily life. Visitors wonder whether our city is still a safe place for travel or business. Families and friends have been under stress, and arguments have flared. We have also seen abuse and bullying in some schools and on the Internet. For many people, Hong Kong has become an unfamiliar place.

Incidents over these past two months have shocked and saddened Hong Kong people. We are all very anxious about Hong Kong, our home. We all hope to find a way out of the current impasse and unsettling times.

Of the "five demands" raised by the public, we have in fact responded on various occasions:

(i) First, on withdrawing the Bill. On June 15 I announced that the Bill was suspended and later reiterated that "the Bill is dead" and that all the legislative work had come to a complete halt;

(ii) Second, on setting up a Commission of Inquiry. The Government believes that matters relating to police enforcement actions are best handled by the existing and well-established Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC), which was set up for exactly this purpose. In addition to handling complaints against individual police officers, the IPCC has undertaken a fact-finding study, under its powers, on the handling of large-scale public order events that took place after June 9. One focus will be the Yuen Long incident on July 21 which attracted serious public concern. The study aims to ascertain the facts, to assess the police handling of protests, and to make recommendations to the Government. The IPCC has established a panel of international experts to assist in its work and will make its findings and recommendations public;

(iii) Third, on the matter of the protest being a riot. We have explained that in fact there is no legal effect on how such incidents are described or categorised. The Department of Justice has assured the public that each and every prosecution decision is based on the evidence collected, and is in strict accordance with the relevant law and the Prosecution Code;

(iv) Fourth, on dropping charges against protesters and rioters and shelving prosecutions. I have explained that this is contrary to the rule of law, and is not acceptable. It also goes against the Basic Law, which states that criminal prosecutions must be handled by the Department of Justice, free from any interference;

(v) Fifth, on implementing universal suffrage. Indeed, this is the ultimate aim laid down in the Basic Law. As we said before, if we are to achieve this, discussions must be undertaken within the legal framework, and in an atmosphere that is conducive to mutual trust and understanding, and without further polarising society.

Our responses to the five demands have been made with full consideration of different constraints and circumstances. I recognise that these may not be able to address all the grievances of people in society. However, should we all think deeply whether escalating violence and disturbances is the answer? Or whether it is better to sit down to find a way out through dialogue.

Many would say that we need a common basis to start such a dialogue, and that this has to start with the Chief Executive. I now present four actions to initiate this dialogue. First, the Government will formally withdraw the Bill in order to fully allay public concerns. The Secretary for Security will move a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes.

Second, we will fully support the work of the IPCC. In addition to the overseas experts, I have appointed two new members to the IPCC, namely Mrs Helen Yu Lai Ching-ping and Mr Paul Lam Ting-kwok, SC. I pledge that the Government will seriously follow up the recommendations made in the IPCC's report.

Third, from this month, I and my Principal Officials will reach out to the community to start a direct dialogue. People from all walks of life, with different stances and backgrounds are invited to share their views and air their grievances. We must find ways to address the discontent in society and to look for solutions.

Fourth, I will invite community leaders, professionals and academics to independently examine and review society's deep-seated problems and to advise the Government on finding solutions. After more than two months of social unrest, it is obvious to many that discontentment extends far beyond the Bill. It covers political, economic and social issues, including the oft-mentioned problems relating to housing and land supply, income distribution, social justice and mobility, and opportunities for our young people, as well as how the public could be fully engaged in the Government's decision-making. We can discuss all these issues in our new dialogue platform.

Fellow citizens, lingering violence is damaging the very foundations of our society, especially the rule of law. Some people, though not many, attacked the Central Government's office in Hong Kong and vandalised the national flag and national emblem. This is a direct challenge to "One Country, Two Systems". Both have put Hong Kong in a highly vulnerable and dangerous situation. Irrespective of our grievances, or the depth of discontentment towards the Government, we cannot agree or accept that violence is a solution to our problems. Our foremost priority now is to end violence, to safeguard the rule of law and to restore order and safety in society. As such, the Government has to strictly enforce the law against all violent and illegal acts.

My team and I hope that the four actions just announced can help our society to move forward. Let's replace conflicts with conversations, and let's look for solutions.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone translate / explain [five demands, not one less]? From the article: “Apart from the formal withdrawal of the legislation, the protesters have asked for the government to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate police conduct in tackling the protests, grant amnesty to those who have been arrested, stop characterising the protests as riots, and restart the city’s stalled political reform process.” A…

The problem is that some of these demands are unrealistic and some are downright unreasonable. Full democracy is a legitimate demand but one that you need to be extremely optimistic, to say the least, to believe that the central government will agree to budge on. On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable. There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message…

> On the other hand, demands regarding rioting are unreasonable

How else are you supposed to fight against a dictator for life in a system that's not a democracy?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#34

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doo…

A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec.

Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message that it is acceptable to throw petrol bombs or to ransack government buildings, or to use violence in general I believe most protesters would agree with that. The fear is authorities using riot laws against peaceful protesters. In this, again, there is reasonable compromise.

If I understand HK law correctly there are 2 offences: taking part in a an "illegal assembly" and "rioting". Rioting involves violence and I don't see the government budge on that. The fact that the protesters' demands mention a blanket amnesty and use the term 'riot' makes the demand unpalatable. Regarding illegal assemblies there might be leeway in how strictly people are charged, or whether charges are dropped in…

Hong Kong almost passed a law allowing extradition to China, a country lacking the rule of law. This is why the legal code failed to mollify the population. It was the law itself the protesters were protecting.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#36
post #9
post #3

Five demands, not one less. 五大訴求,缺一不可。

Can someone translate / explain this ?

五大訴求,缺一不可。 Five big demands, can’t do without any of them.

五 5 大 big 訴求 demands 缺一不可 fixed expression “none is dispensable” (缺 lack 一 one 不 no 可 can/possible)

The five demand in question are the ones there is broad consensus on, see other threads.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this how the Third World War starts?

Over pork? Hope not. Bidding war for Brazilian pork exports, perhaps.

Pork consumption 2016 in metric tons:

China 54,070,000 America 9,452,000 Brazil 2,811,000

It's estimated that the supply gap will be 20,000,000 tons in 2020, I don't think Brazil can supply that even if they ditch pork.

The whole planet can't supply it.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/237619/export-of-pork-in...

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this factors in but I want to offer my intuitive sense of the situation and how it differs from earlier political phenomena -- 1989 is 30 years ago it may as well be 300 and 1939 is a millennium away at best The difference between then and now is the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness (recommended reading: Marshall McLuhan: Understanding Media) If the medium is the message as it…

> the drastic shift we have undergone as a human consciousness I don't really know what this means, but if you think that the inherent nature of the human soul has changed in the last few decades, think again... If tomorrow there was a catastrophic event such as a worldwide nuclear fallout, humans would be at each other's throats in the blink of an eye. The only thing really keeping us together are institutions and c…

That's very kind of you to reply arcturus17 -- no question human nature hasn't changed since the days of the Romans and we're certainly at each other's throats but I'm telling you the tank commanders are more sentient than they were in 1989 by all accounts they're millennials just like the rest of y'all

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#39

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doo…

The shift has already happened and pork prices are politics bro -- if we're to reduce the argument back to roman days, pane et circenses rules the day

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#40
post #34

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doo…

A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec. Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.

Well, the party has stated loud and clear that China will fight America (and the evil West) no matter what, at all costs and to the very end.
Post reply on HN