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We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

theguardian.com

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Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#61

Post by sdoering »

lagadu wrote: post #35
propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

Hello boogeyman - then let me be your counter example.

I eat meat regularly. But it is not that much - compared to the national average. And I know exactly that neither the cattle, nor their food came from anywhere near the Amazonas.

I only eat meat when I know the producer and how they produced it. In my case it is a local farm that is a closed system: They grow what they need to feed their cattle - and use the manure to grow their crops (and so on). And the cattle is treated by very high standards regarding organic meat production in Germany (Bioland standard).

In the winter months I do eat about 50 - 110 grams of meat per week on average. Depending on if I do have a bigger piece of meat on the weekends or "just" some ham (and the like) during the week.

In the summer month my garden produces so much vegetables that I am nearly fully vegetarian - my current meat average for the summer is below 10 grams per week.

Disclaimer: Yes, I have butter at home to cook with. Yes I use dairy, also from said local farm.

But - and that is the interesting aspect for me: A lot more people could do this.

The produced meat is of such a quality, that I can have the ham cut so thin, I could read the newspaper through it - it still tastes way more intensive than the stuff from the big box store.

So per slice of bread - my ham is costing me less than before the switch.I am actually saving money by having a great taste and also supporting local farmers that act in sync with the environment.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#62

Post by propater »

lagadu wrote: post #35
propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

This is insane... I react to a post saying "I am not connected to what happens in Brazil" by saying, yes, as a matter of fact, you are very likely to be connected to those events and people jump the gun and talk about sin, guilt and boogeymen...

We have a problem. We have put in place structures, institutions and incentives that are failing us and jeopardizing our capacity to protect our values in the future.

I agree that the individual has a limited impact on what is happening and collective action is needed.

And yet, collective action is not going to happen if every individual is defecting or just stays ignorant of their place in those systems.

And yet, the problem is not going to disappear if no one is implementing at least some changes to one's lifestyle.

You say the only motivation for you is to be able to say "it is not my fault" but reality does not care whose fault it is...

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#63

Post by lostjohnny »

exergy wrote: post #55
lostjohnny wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at Indians instead I'm Italian my friend. We live of vegetables, but we don't try to create the myth of the "mostly vegetarian diet" like most do about Indians. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122 EAT LESS, that's all we have to do.

I'm not saying we are particularly good at not eating meat. I'm saying we are evidence that not eating meat need not be a deprivational scourge.

I just said it won't save the planet.

I could live of tomatoes, because I love them, not because I think I'm part of some kind of world salvation army.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#64

Post by lagadu »

sls wrote: post #47
lagadu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

Tbh it sounds like you're guilt-free either way. You're saying that it doesn't matter at all to you when your actions harm others. You would like to be able to say they didn't, but don't feel guilty if they do. Also fwiw as many people who have tried it will tell you, there is a gain in acting selflessly, and it's better than the gain from acting selfishly. The idea that altruism is for suckers is actually harmful to…

Human behavior is economic behavior, which is a fancy way of saying "people do things because there's a perceived benefit to doing so". Altruistic behavior usually carries at least a social benefit, besides the "I did good" feeling which is also a personal benefit. Blaming someone for something outside their control and saying that they're always to blame no matter what nullifies both of those incentives: you stop reaping their rewards.

This is a good example: if you're still shamed despite altruistic behavior, why would I possibly keep making sacrifices that I gain nothing for (including feeling good about having done them) when I can go back to my VASTLY more rewarding hedonistic lifestyle?

If you put someone in a situation where they're supposed to feel shame no matter what, they're going to become 100% insensitive to it in record time. In other words: yes, I am guilt-free because there's no other possible state under this framework of inescapable blame.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#65

Post by depressedpanda »

propater wrote: post #11
trabant00 wrote: post #3

Reading this from Eastern Europe the "you" in: "You destroy our lands" "that common enemy is you" "We call on you to stop what you are doing" "When your money comes into our communities" etc sound very wrong. I imagine it also sounds weird for people in America who have no connections with what happens in the Amazon.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

> If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed.

That's an obviously false conclusion.

If I only eat locally sourced meat that's not fed inferior soy feed, how does that in any way contribute to Brazil's deforestation?

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#66

Post by andrepd »

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

>A huge amount of human endeavour is spent helping a relatively few rich people suck a bit more of the Earth before it implodes.

A summary of production under capitalism.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#67

Post by luckylion »

oddeyed wrote: post #51
Mordisquitos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reasoning is problematic, as it amounts to reviving the concept of "original sin" to apply it to anyone who happens to live in a developed economy. By throwing blanket statements such as that, it is discouraging even the small changes that may help (for we are all "sinners" regardless), and diffuses responsibility from those who truly could make an impact. I believe a lot of hand-wringing on these topics comes f…

Your comment reads like you are projecting your own guilt onto the parent. They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected. They then made two conditions predicated on having high socio-economic status (eating meat regularly, invest…

> They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected.

That doesn't say anything though. Everybody is connected to everything. It may be direct, indirect, with one or two or twenty hops, but everybody is connected. You can make an argument that the last few uncontacted tribes aren't connected, but everybody else is, especially by the "you're living in a society that reaps the benefits" idea, because pretty much everybody does that to varying degrees (but still connected) with technology, medical advances etc.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#68

Post by fit2rule »

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

My family and I have changed our ways. I used to live a typically American lifestyle - spending 4 hours every day in the car, mostly parked on a freeway, to get to work. Ordering takeout 5 times a week because I was too exhausted to cook for myself. Buying useless crap that filled my house, only to get a bigger house for more useless crap.

But, after the 9/11 attacks, I took a good hard look at myself. You could say, the blowback factor was real.

Now I live in a modest house just outside the city where I work, and I can cycle into the city in 40 minutes through a green landscape when the weather is good. My family and I are avid gardeners and grow our own veggies for 4/5th's of the year - sourcing it from local farmers for the rest of the time when our garden is sleeping for winter. We cook for ourselves like demons, and have massively improved health as a result. My children are taller and stronger than their peers, because they've been raised on home cooking and fresh vegetables where their peers were not.

I also ride electric, always and only - a small, weak, underpowered electric moped gets me through the city comfortably, and I recharge it every few days from house power, derived from renewables (solar and wind). Its pretty much ideal in terms of carbon footprint.

It took a big change however. I had to leave the USA and now live in middle Europe (Vienna, Austria) - a country that has long since decided to upgrade the standard of living of its people through smart economic policies designed to reduce dependence on petroleum. Its not perfect - there is still a lot of work to do in my community - but its certainly better than the, frankly disturbing, lifestyle I led in the USA.

The point is, the resources are there. People can actually massively reduce their carbon footprint if needed. You may have to move - far and wide - to escape the city trap. If you are spending more than an hour every day in your car, just to support your lifestyle, this is a clue that you MUST change. Every hour spent in traffic is a crime against the planet.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#69

Post by mantesso »

missosoup wrote: post #39
jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than…

>Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics.

while this might represent a small fraction of the global total emissions, the CO2 (and other harmful particles) produced by cars is much more detrimental to human health since it will be concentrated in the cities and near humans live.

The cargo emissions should be less harmful as there are not many people living in the oceans and algae effect should also be considered as it produces most of the oxygen we breath.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#70

Post by propater »

lagadu wrote: post #64
sls wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh it sounds like you're guilt-free either way. You're saying that it doesn't matter at all to you when your actions harm others. You would like to be able to say they didn't, but don't feel guilty if they do. Also fwiw as many people who have tried it will tell you, there is a gain in acting selflessly, and it's better than the gain from acting selfishly. The idea that altruism is for suckers is actually harmful to…

Human behavior is economic behavior, which is a fancy way of saying "people do things because there's a perceived benefit to doing so". Altruistic behavior usually carries at least a social benefit, besides the "I did good" feeling which is also a personal benefit. Blaming someone for something outside their control and saying that they're always to blame no matter what nullifies both of those incentives: you stop re…

I think you are too focused on the individual. Reducing your personal meat consumption, your personal emissions and so on is nice and all but it is not going to be enough. You are also embedded in a number of social structures and institutions and those will have to change too if we want to be able to claim to be "guilt free" and those changes require personal involvement.
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