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We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

theguardian.com

41–50 of 168 posts

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#41

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

Next to everyone doing things - we could also add some regulation for extremely polluting industries/companies.

Like I remember that one European Cruise company's ships produced the same amount of CO2-equivalent than all European Cars combined last year (or was it the year before that?).

All friggin EU cars? This is what I would call a lever.

And for what? For the sake of one company making money by providing a kind of recreation that could at least be discussed as it provides recreation - but recreation could be provided in a more environmental friendly way as well.

Just regulating this one industry would go a long way. And there are probably some other low hanging fruits still undiscussed.

Sadly the whole discussion seems to revolve around what the individual should/could do. Often it seems to me especially to mask the fact that regulating some industries would be a faster and imho more efficient way.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#42
post #12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are rarely actually blind to the consequences of their actions. Most people know exactly what they're doing, especially if they're not working alone. If someone is doing something you believe is bad it's because they have prioritised something else (usually, but not always, personal gain).

Not just personal gain. The benefits of industrialisation and capitalism have been tremendous for people’s quality of life, stability of their food supply, access to medicine, work hours, work conditions. If it has an impact on the climate it is regrettable and should be mitigated as possible, but it is still a major net positive.

The benefits of industrialisation and capitalism have been tremendous for people’s quality of life, stability of their food supply, access to medicine, work hours, work conditions.

While it's true that workers have better and easier lives now than they have had in the past, I don't believe many early entrepreneurs pushed for industrialization for the societal benefits. They did it because those changes made them massive great piles of cash. If your workers are healthier, better educated, and don't hate going to work so much the business benefits far more than the workers do individually.

Better conditions, health, etc are a side effect of industrialization. They were never the goal.

When you see HR making out something is a benefit for the workers you can be fairly sure the management bought in because it will also improve the bottom line in some measurable way.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#43

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

>The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long, long way.

That means a reduction of production and consumer spending by 50% or more, and the end of the "no limits progress" which is beyond the pale for modern business interests, and the 10% well off part of the population that does their biding (executives, intellectuals, politicians, media people, and so on).

It's better in today's prevalent culture that the world end in flames (perhaps while waiting for some magic technology to fix it all) than go back on consumption...

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#44

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

> A huge amount of human endeavour is spent helping a relatively few rich people suck a bit more of the Earth before it implodes. Big industrial companies are not making products for rich people, but for the vast bulk of people.

And a huge 24/7 mechanism is used to make this vast bulk of people want, work for, and buy, those products...

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#45
They are right to be full of fear. Their way of living will very likely be destroyed.

I doubt the rest of the world will even notice much.

However, maybe to protect the Amazonas, the thing to do is to give the indigenous people guns. Who else is going to prevent deforestation? The government seems to be unwilling to protect the rain forest. The indigenous people claim they want to protect it.

Give them guns!

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than…

Do you have a source for your claim? Here[1] is a link I found breaking down the fuel consumption by sector. Seems Motor Oil vastly outscores Residue Fuel Oil, which I believe is what tankers use. I may be wrong, though, and would be interested in being corrected.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec3_23.pdf

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

Tbh it sounds like you're guilt-free either way. You're saying that it doesn't matter at all to you when your actions harm others. You would like to be able to say they didn't, but don't feel guilty if they do. Also fwiw as many people who have tried it will tell you, there is a gain in acting selflessly, and it's better than the gain from acting selfishly. The idea that altruism is for suckers is actually harmful to your self-interest.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

That reasoning is problematic, as it amounts to reviving the concept of "original sin" to apply it to anyone who happens to live in a developed economy. By throwing blanket statements such as that, it is discouraging even the small changes that may help (for we are all "sinners" regardless), and diffuses responsibility from those who truly could make an impact. I believe a lot of hand-wringing on these topics comes f…

>That reasoning is problematic, as it amounts to reviving the concept of "original sin" to apply it to anyone who happens to live in a developed economy.

Well, the original sin never really went away.

People are inherently flawed creatures (which is what the original sin myth meant to capture).

And "anyone who happens to live in a developed economy" contributes to today's climate problem, whether they want/link it or not. They don't even have to be on the top of the hierarchy (although there's probably a powerlaw/pareto distribution of harm).

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#49

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

The problem with your reasoning is this is being done by corrupt governments and cattle and lumber industries in a country making consumer goods for themselves. I can do all those things here and it won't do anything to fix the problem there, the problems are local and will continue to be local as long as the people of Brazil tolerate it. How many people have donated to funds to preserve the Amazon, and what exactly has that gotten us? We sit here in a our affluent country and tell those in another country that they shouldn't exploit their natural resources to have what we have? This is backwards and naive thinking. Until the people locally value what they have more than they do economic prosperity, even if only temporary, it will continue no matter what life style Americans or Europeans choose to adopt.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#50
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

> Look at pandas Look at Indians instead. We eat a primarily vegetarian diet. I assure you we sleep nowhere close to 16 hours a day. We also work in the sweltering heat etc, which our diet seems more than capable of taking on. Yeah, eating raw food is great, and eating less is also great. "Eat food , not too much, mostly plants" and all that, but Indian cuisine stands as an example that eating vegetarian food need no…

> Look at Indians instead

I'm Italian my friend.

We live of vegetables, but we don't try to create the myth of the "mostly vegetarian diet" like most do about Indians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122

EAT LESS, that's all we have to do.

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