We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too • Hacker News Board

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#31

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:08 AM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

> A huge amount of human endeavour is spent helping a relatively few rich people suck a bit more of the Earth before it implodes.

Big industrial companies are not making products for rich people, but for the vast bulk of people.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#32

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:09 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #18

propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

The problem with a post like this is that it tries to guilt the individual and their consumerism - but individuals cannot have enough of an impact. It's up to our chosen representatives to e.g. ban the import of soy and beef from Brazil. The net effect to the individual will be that beef is either more expensive or simply no longer available - and that's fine, there's plenty of local and renewable alternatives. No, f…

[deleted]

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#33

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:14 AM UTC

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world.

No, it wouldn't.

Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet.

They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient.

If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly.

if we are talking about "I can be mostly vegetarian because I buy integrators from the drugstore" that's the same of eating fried chicken intensively farmed 4 times a day, in large quantities, for the environment.

What most western cultures should aim for is eating raw food, completely avoid processed food and, most of all, EAT LESS.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#34

Post by teddyuk » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:15 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #29

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

Yes, but like parent said, we're starved of time. I would love to bike or take public transport to work but that's over an hour of commute vs 20-25 minutes by car and I don't live in the middle of nowhere but in a medium sized European city. The problem is the employers who move to the sticks, far away from the cties, where office space is cheapest and assume their workers can afford cars and should commute. Not only…

In london commuter trains are over crowded and they spend millions (billions?) every year on upgrading and it costs me about £900 a month to use these trains.

If governments incentivised companies to encourage remote work, this money would be unnecessary as many people wouldn't commute any more - saving money for everyone, saving the environment and allowing people to have a home life and see their kids/partner etc.

Remote working is a massive win-win for everyone, I wish the government realised this.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#35

Post by lagadu » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:16 AM UTC

propater wrote: post #11

trabant00 wrote: post #3

Reading this from Eastern Europe the "you" in: "You destroy our lands" "that common enemy is you" "We call on you to stop what you are doing" "When your money comes into our communities" etc sound very wrong. I imagine it also sounds weird for people in America who have no connections with what happens in the Amazon.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society.

By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy it and let the other suckers do the sacrifices for no gain that I'm unwilling to make, completely guilt-free.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#36

Post by cm2187 » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:19 AM UTC

glogla wrote: post #21

cm2187 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not trying to change the behaviour of the Guardian, merely pointing at its virtu signalling.

Does "Virtue signalling" count as alt-right dog whistle? It should, based on usage.

Godwin point reached.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#37

Post by SmellyGeekBoy » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:23 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #14

cm2187 wrote: post #5

I am not sure that many Brazilian farmers are reading the Guardian. But if it can help the editor’s ego...

Brazil exports loads of food. Not buying meats from Brazil (not so common in Western countries, though) is one of the most effective ways to change the situation.

Indeed. Just eat meat that's been produced locally. It's not difficult. It is, however, more expensive. If it's too expensive, perhaps consider the option that you're eating too much of it.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#38

Post by kchamplewski » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:30 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #33

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

Assuming you genuinely are trying to make a good faith argument (which I strongly feel you're not):

Pandas eat bamboo. Bamboo has practically no nutritional value so, no, Pandas are not very energetic.

None of the vegetarians I know need 16 hours of sleep per day, and I suspect that's because

- They are not bears, and so do not have the metabolism of bears.

- They don't subsist entirely off bamboo, or one foodstuff in general.

Besides, the a primarily vegetarian diet doesn't necessarily mean no meat, it just means realising that meat production is so absurdly energy, land, and water intensive that eating it on a daily basis is simply unsustainable.

The amount of energy that goes into cooking hour meat is negligible compared to the amount of energy needed to produce it in the first place.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#39

Post by missosoup » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:30 AM UTC

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

CalRobert wrote: post #17

The tragic thing is that there's this idea you have to live life as an austere pioneer hippie to address this. You really don't. A world of mostly-vegetarian people living in modern, timber (for carbon sequestration) flats in mixed-use environments, using renewable electricity to power their heat pumps and AC, traveling primarily via bike, walking, and public transport, and owning less disposable crap would go a long…

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world.

Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics.

A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than diesel) to travel 1 meter. 15 typical cargo ships emit as much CO2 as all cars on the planet combined. There are about 15,000 such ships operating today, with a further 30,000 slightly smaller ones. A single cruise ship company like Carnival Cruise emits more CO2 than all of Europe's car's combined.

Even if the entire world converted to zero-emission EVs overnight, it wouldn't make a meaningful dent in these numbers.

The inconvenient truth is that in order to make a serious dent on transportation related CO2 emissions, the entire developed world would have to give up its lavish lifestyle of internationally shipped products and foods. Sadly a harder sell then 'drive an EV to save the planet lol', so our governments continue to focus on inconsequential but easily attainable measures. And that is nothing to say of the fact that cutting down international shipping is at odds with free market capitalism that's driving our civilisation.

Fun fact: bulk carrier shipping is so cheap that in Australia, locally caught fish are shipped to China for processing and freezing and then shipped back here for retail. The pollution associated with this alone is more than the sum pollution of all Australian cars.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#40

Post by exergy » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:32 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #33

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

> Look at pandas

Look at Indians instead. We eat a primarily vegetarian diet. I assure you we sleep nowhere close to 16 hours a day. We also work in the sweltering heat etc, which our diet seems more than capable of taking on.

Yeah, eating raw food is great, and eating less is also great. "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants" and all that, but Indian cuisine stands as an example that eating vegetarian food need not be a bland affair.