We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too • Hacker News Board

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#51

Post by oddeyed » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:41 AM UTC

Mordisquitos wrote: post #23

propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

That reasoning is problematic, as it amounts to reviving the concept of "original sin" to apply it to anyone who happens to live in a developed economy. By throwing blanket statements such as that, it is discouraging even the small changes that may help (for we are all "sinners" regardless), and diffuses responsibility from those who truly could make an impact. I believe a lot of hand-wringing on these topics comes f…

Your comment reads like you are projecting your own guilt onto the parent.

They said that you are "connected" to deforestation if you are living in a developed economy - you interpreted that as implying that all people in developed economies are sinning. They didn't say that everyone is guilty, just connected.

They then made two conditions predicated on having high socio-economic status (eating meat regularly, investing in a stock market) and stated that these do imply some level of guilt. I think that does account for the difference in lifestyle between income levels in the global economy and read it as implying that those with the most impactful lifestyle should make the most reductions - agreeing with your statement amount relative room for maneuvering.

EDIT: You said "I believe a lot of hand-wringing on these topics comes from positions of economic privilege" - many agree. Many see environmentalism as a "bourgeois playground" to its detriment. You might find this interesting: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n11/naomi-klein/let-them-drown

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#52

Post by gvurrdon » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #29

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

Yes, but like parent said, we're starved of time. I would love to bike or take public transport to work but that's over an hour of commute vs 20-25 minutes by car and I don't live in the middle of nowhere but in a medium sized European city. The problem is the employers who move to the sticks, far away from the cties, where office space is cheapest and assume their workers can afford cars and should commute. Not only…

I've got the opposite problem - office in the city centre, home out in the country where I can afford to live. So, 30 minutes from my house to the city outskirts, 30 more from there to the office, whether it's by car, bus, or a combination. Then, the same in reverse in the evening. These times can be higher and are often unpredictable.

Working from home would be easy and save me a lot of time, but it's very much frowned upon, as you say.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#53

Post by chunkyslink » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #3

Reading this from Eastern Europe the "you" in: "You destroy our lands" "that common enemy is you" "We call on you to stop what you are doing" "When your money comes into our communities" etc sound very wrong. I imagine it also sounds weird for people in America who have no connections with what happens in the Amazon.

You have everything to do with it, if you eat meat and buy from the internet.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#54

Post by missosoup » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:43 AM UTC

exergy wrote: post #46

missosoup wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. Changing diets yes. Changing driving habits, not really. Personal use of passenger vehicles accounts for a tiny fraction of transportation related CO2 emissions. The overwhelming majority comes from cargo ships and associated logistics. A typical cargo ship will burn about 30 liters of bunker fuel (far more polluting than…

Do you have a source for your claim? Here[1] is a link I found breaking down the fuel consumption by sector. Seems Motor Oil vastly outscores Residue Fuel Oil, which I believe is what tankers use. I may be wrong, though, and would be interested in being corrected. [1] https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec3_23.pdf

https://medium.com/@victoria27/heres-how-much-pollution-ship...

https://www.ft.com/content/8bceef94-86cd-11e9-a028-86cea8523...

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping...

https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/why-australia-is-not-maki...

My actual job is in the shipping route optimisation space. Sub-percentile improvements in fuel consumption for a single route result in hundreds of millions of dollars of fuel savings. Of a fuel that's both cheaper and far more polluting than diesel. It's pretty obvious that shipping fuel consumption and associated emissions eclipse personal transportation.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#55

Post by exergy » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #50

exergy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at pandas Look at Indians instead. We eat a primarily vegetarian diet. I assure you we sleep nowhere close to 16 hours a day. We also work in the sweltering heat etc, which our diet seems more than capable of taking on. Yeah, eating raw food is great, and eating less is also great. "Eat food , not too much, mostly plants" and all that, but Indian cuisine stands as an example that eating vegetarian food need no…

> Look at Indians instead I'm Italian my friend. We live of vegetables, but we don't try to create the myth of the "mostly vegetarian diet" like most do about Indians. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122 EAT LESS, that's all we have to do.

I'm not saying we are particularly good at not eating meat. I'm saying we are evidence that not eating meat need not be a deprivational scourge.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#56

Post by nec4b » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

propater wrote: post #11

trabant00 wrote: post #3

Reading this from Eastern Europe the "you" in: "You destroy our lands" "that common enemy is you" "We call on you to stop what you are doing" "When your money comes into our communities" etc sound very wrong. I imagine it also sounds weird for people in America who have no connections with what happens in the Amazon.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

No need to be baffled. Eastern Europe is mostly self sufficient in regards to meat production.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#57

Post by zajio1am » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #41

jamesb93 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that far. Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. As someone who is fairly new to adulthood I dont really see why we work so much - there just doesn't seem like there is much to "get". There should ve a greater focus on tending our environments around us, spending money on experiences and creating art (or even just having a hobby).

Next to everyone doing things - we could also add some regulation for extremely polluting industries/companies. Like I remember that one European Cruise company's ships produced the same amount of CO2-equivalent than all European Cars combined last year (or was it the year before that?). All friggin EU cars? This is what I would call a lever. And for what? For the sake of one company making money by providing a kind…

> Like I remember that one European Cruise company's ships produced the same amount of CO2-equivalent than all European Cars combined last year

Seems like BS. Such propositions are sometimes claimed, but they are for SO2/NOx/particulates emissions, not for CO2. Then they got misinterpreted as CO2 emissions.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#58

Post by oddeyed » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #18

propater wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am always a bit baffled when, after decades of living in a globalized economy, people who are part of advanced economies claim they have no connections to events, driven by economics, occurring on the other side of the world. If you eat meat regularly, you are connected to Brazil's deforestation, either for cattle or for soy feed. If you have invested in the stock market, you are most likely connected to the intern…

The problem with a post like this is that it tries to guilt the individual and their consumerism - but individuals cannot have enough of an impact. It's up to our chosen representatives to e.g. ban the import of soy and beef from Brazil. The net effect to the individual will be that beef is either more expensive or simply no longer available - and that's fine, there's plenty of local and renewable alternatives. No, f…

I'm curious how you think that a country would ever stop consuming soy from Brazil unless there was a strong desire from the populace of the country to stop doing so.

Markets allow you to vote every time you buy something on what your values are. Every time you choose to buy something from, say Brazil, that will be read as an endorsement of Brazil whenever someone looks at a balance sheet of imports and decides whether they can afford to instigate some kind of ban.

I think that people making personal choices about their own consumption is a very reasonable way for them to signal their desires and so the changes you say (and I agree) are required can be worked towards through grassroots community (e.g. asking people to individually boycott products).

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#59

Post by tremon » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:45 AM UTC

sls wrote: post #47

lagadu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I am your boogeyman: I eat meat regularly, have investments, grew up and live in the middle of a western society. By default I'm inclined to stop doing exactly zero of those, and by saying "you're at fault no matter what you do or don't do" you've just removed the sole remaining incentive for me to stop doing it: being able to say "it's not my fault". If I'm to blame no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy…

Tbh it sounds like you're guilt-free either way. You're saying that it doesn't matter at all to you when your actions harm others. You would like to be able to say they didn't, but don't feel guilty if they do. Also fwiw as many people who have tried it will tell you, there is a gain in acting selflessly, and it's better than the gain from acting selfishly. The idea that altruism is for suckers is actually harmful to…

No, he's saying he is guilt-laden either way. Therefore, it makes no sense to put in effort because it will not absolve him of that perceived yoke.

Re: We, the peoples of the Amazon, are full of fear. Soon you will be too

#60

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 03, 2019, 9:46 AM UTC

kchamplewski wrote: post #38

lostjohnny wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily vegetarian diets and less driving would make mountains of difference for the world. No, it wouldn't. Look at pandas, they are bears (omnivores, like us), living on a primarily vegetarian diet. They sleep 16 hours a day and when they are awake they eat, because a vegetarian diet is not really energy efficient. If we are talking about a true vegetarian diet, environmental friendly. if we are talking about "…

Assuming you genuinely are trying to make a good faith argument (which I strongly feel you're not): Pandas eat bamboo. Bamboo has practically no nutritional value so, no, Pandas are not very energetic. None of the vegetarians I know need 16 hours of sleep per day, and I suspect that's because - They are not bears, and so do not have the metabolism of bears. - They don't subsist entirely off bamboo, or one foodstuff i…

> Besides, the a primarily vegetarian diet doesn't necessarily mean no meat

Just eat less.

If you eat less, you automatically balance your diet.

You could live of three pieces of beef junkie a day for a long time, that's not so bad for environment as well.

They made you believe that "meat production is so absurdly energy, land, and water intensive" but that's because our information system is mainly based on the US lifestyle, the land of freedom (to destroy other people lives).

I grew up in places like this, where meat production is almost a natural process.

https://reportagedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/pascolo-...

The more you eat, the more the spectrum moves towards junk food.

Beyond true hunger, it's only addiction.

Addictions are never a good thing.