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Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

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Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#441

Post by stupidthrottle »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #363
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t care to get into it or take a position on the matter, I am just pointing out that it’s possible to have disagreements about where the boundaries are without it being the case that there is an element of hate involved. It’s possible for someone to disagree that a man is a woman without hating them for thinking they are a woman. It’s also possible for them to be sensitive about how they express that without unn…

Yes, and at certain points how you refer to a person is political because they are trans, what do you do then? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a male? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a woman (if you believe referring to trans women being seen as women is a hateful thing)? Similarly, what happens if you believe espousing homosexuality as normal is…

> and at certain points how you refer to a person is political because they are trans

Not any more political than them requiring you to address them and treat them as a gender they are not.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#442

Post by einhverfr »

webwielder2 wrote: post #59

It's funny how we pigeonhole "things that actually matter" as "politics" and that those things are somehow taboo. I mean, what's MORE worth talking about than human rights, the environment, history, etc.?

Also if we can't discuss politics over disagreement in a civil way seeking to learn from each other even where we find the other points of view difficult, then all hope for a better future is lost. Nobody ever learns from mere agreement. Disagreement is a precondition to learning from other people.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#443

Post by adrianN »

maxaf wrote: post #371
munk-a wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting point - especially when it comes to the urgency a lot of people feel when considering climate change. I feel like part of the partisan leak into the workplace might be due to the lack of responsible governance that most Americans are feeling right now - since the entities responsible for fixing the big problems are out to lunch everyone is feeling a need to try and help solve those problems them…

Most of this political fervor is simple grandstanding. If these people really, truly cared about the issues they advocate, they'd have abandoned their cushy jobs at Google and gone on to make a real difference. I fully agree that the American consumerist lifestyle has run its course, and has done tremendous damage to the planet. However, those who yell the most loudly about it should also be the ones to quit it first…

Quitting civilization to live on a self sustaining farm is a perfect way of limiting your political influence. It's the exact opposite of what you should do if you want real change in an issue where everybody needs to do something.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#444

Post by SolaceQuantum »

stupidthrottle wrote: post #441
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and at certain points how you refer to a person is political because they are trans, what do you do then? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a male? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a woman (if you believe referring to trans women being seen as women is a hateful thing)? Similarly, what happens if you believe espousing homosexuality as normal is…

> and at certain points how you refer to a person is political because they are trans Not any more political than them requiring you to address them and treat them as a gender they are not.

Yes, that's the point I'm making. Their identity and their claim is a political statement, so banning politics at work puts being trans in a confusing situation which I'm curious about.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#445

Post by einhverfr »

maxaf wrote: post #82
webwielder2 wrote: post #59

It's funny how we pigeonhole "things that actually matter" as "politics" and that those things are somehow taboo. I mean, what's MORE worth talking about than human rights, the environment, history, etc.?

Not every place where groups of people participate in shared activities must become a forum for political battles.

One thing I learned in Europe is to discuss politics over food.

Food is like CS Lewis said about smoking a pipe: It gives a wise man time to think and a fool something to put in his mouth.

What that means is that people get to spend time thinking before they respond and that makes a big difference. When I did a contract in Denmark we used to discuss all kinds of politics -- immigration, cultural differences, which parties were insane, etc but always over food. And it meant we could discuss and disagree without feelings getting hurt.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#446

Post by sct202 »

nostrademons wrote: post #169
baby wrote: post #29

I'm not at Google but my guess is that the number of Chinese employees and the current protests in HongKong might create some internal political fights.

I haven't been at Google in 5 years but I worked with a lot of Chinese coworkers from all three of mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong when I was there (as well as ABCs of those descents). Honestly, I never saw a Chinese employee get into a political argument. Mostly they were just happy to be in the U.S. and draw a Google-level salary. ABCs (including myself) would, but usually about American politics, not Chinese…

I heard from some friends in NYC that there was drama over the lego flag sculptures, where the Taiwanese lego flag was mysteriously smashed several times and the rebuilt flag hidden behind a larger PRC lego flag.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#447

Post by SolaceQuantum »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #423
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and at certain points how you refer to a person is political because they are trans, what do you do then? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a male? What is the sensitive, non-harmful way to refer to a trans woman as a woman (if you believe referring to trans women being seen as women is a hateful thing)? Similarly, what happens if you believe espousing homosexuality as normal is…

I don’t think those examples are the more difficult ones, and those aren’t the issues that the detractors have. It’s not symmetrical. Some people think that it’s rude or even hateful to intentionally call a trans woman a man, but nobody thinks it’s rude or hateful to call a trans woman a woman. Where that becomes a problem for that side is where things get complicated. Can trans women fight biological women in MMA? C…

Could you clarify how this is the case that it isn't the issues detractors have, when another comment responding to this is in fact exactly whether or not trans people can ask to be called by their prefered pronouns?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#448

Post by jgunsch »

oppositelock wrote: post #187

I worked at Google for quite a while, 2005-2013, and even then, the internal political discussion was pretty toxic, but a lot smaller in scope since there are far fewer people. There were definitely groups meant for discussing politics, and loudmouths like me willingly participated in those - however, it was very uncivil. There was a majority view in the company, and if anyone didn't agree with the majority view, the…

I worked there for a similar length of time, but more recent (2012 - early 2019). The internal political discourse over that time definitely mirrored the rest of the world: becoming increasingly heated and divisive during 2016 and largely escalating since.

On the whole, it felt like it pushed the company in a positive direction --- internal discussions mirroring #metoo led to more visibility of sexual harassment and accountability for leadership. The discourse around the James Damore memo, as divisive as it was, felt like it still led to a broader understanding of the negative perspectives women in tech had to deal with constantly.

Most importantly (IMO), Google's product choices and politics are not inseparable --- Google is far too large and influential to pretend otherwise, and discussing these topics acted as a watchdog of sorts. Internal discussions about a potential censored search engine product in China resulted in pressure on leadership to change course, and pressure on Cloud bidding on the JEDI contract led to Google withdrawing from that bid.

Shutting off that political discourse feels like it'd be a huge blow to "oversight" from concerned Googlers --- particularly the ones who felt it was worth staying and using their influence internally to push Google toward creating a more just world.

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#449

Post by SolaceQuantum »

josteink wrote: post #438
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it merely a viewpoint to disagree politely upon that people should be called using pronouns they identify as? For example, if I repeatedly called a cis woman a man, and insisted she was a male, should this be objected to any differently than if I repeatedly called a trans woman a man and insisted she was a male? I understand the former (calling a cis woman a man and insisting on referring to her as he pronouns) to…

> But the idea of calling a trans woman a woman is a political move? You are arguing that we should accept a man who’s feeling “womany” as a real woman, and that he should legally be treated as a woman. Personally I think that’s absurd. I think we should let everyone be who they are, but I disagree about having legalities determined by what someone claims to feel. Feelings are feelings, and very much soft and fluid.…

I'm not saying anything except that what does one do when a workplace bans politics but being LGBTQ is a political act? How does one avoid politics when calling someone 'he' or 'she' (either way) is a political act?

Re: Google Doesn’t Want Staff Debating Politics at Work Anymore

#450

Post by ThrustVectoring »

carapace wrote: post #352
ashwinaj wrote: post #133

Finally common sense prevails! Get to work on time, eat your free lunch, work, go home. To those of you who disagree; if you want to "make a difference" take a cue from Gandhi, Mandela, Martin Luther king Jr. etc. Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom. If you are serious about it put your money where your mouth is and stop being empty vessels.

> Mahama Gandhi didn't work for the East India company while simultaneously fighting for freedom. LOL! I worked at Google for about two years as a "TVC" (a programmer in a cubical, not a "real" Googler) and it was like being kidnapped by aliens, after I left that's how it felt: Like I was one of those people who had just been returned to Earth. One thing that doesn't get talked about in re: Google and values: there's…

This is arguably because of ERISA and Google's decision to make their 401(k) plan highly optimized for software developers. ERISA says that you have to offer the same 401(k) to all employees and that it has to meet fairness criteria for "highly compensated" employees, but it doesn't say what labor inputs have to be provided by employees vs contractors.
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