Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#171

Post by markus_zhang » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:00 AM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #154

markus_zhang wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. For one, how do you know the things you being fed are real? And what are you going to do if it's real/not real? Just venting? If you don't like the leadership, there are plenty of other ways to improve that, but talking is the cheapest.

So, your suggestion is that change should be organized without talking about it, did I understand that right? Gee, the authoritarian brainwashing really is strong with you.

No. You misundertood. Changes cannot be achieved by simple talking. You have to complain and do things if it doesn't work. BTW I agree with peaceful protesters.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#172

Post by PavlovsCat » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #159

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the protesters will offer a different slant. From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. They've watched as China has gradually taken control of the governing body, the media, the financial management and the police. Each transpired more or less over a number of years, but each was also worrisome and that worry and anxiety pent up. The trigge…

> From what I've read, they genuinely understand that what is at stake is their freedom to choose their own path. Unfortunately that's not what's at stake because they won't succeed; freedom isn't actually an option. They think it is, but they'll fail. > Liberty is what they are fighting to keep. Not wealth. That might be what they tell themselves, but I can guarantee that if all the HK youth got cushy finance jobs l…

You know, I wanted to contradict you, then I thought better and didn't want to bicker, but then saw you had gotten 3 downvotes in this short time, which I also don't like -- so I'll just say what for me is the main thing:

> For the record, I'm not saying that Hong Kongers are wrong for protesting or wanting freedom. I'm just saying they'll fail, and the consequences won't be pretty.

You may be correct, you may not. I wonder if people said the same thing right up to the end of segregation, and other things. But that doesn't matter: might does not make right. Our predictions don't matter, our individual stances do.

> Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. [..] the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it.

-- Joseph Weizenbaum

Everybody dies at some point, anyway. All wealth goes down the drain. What these people are changing, and what cannot be taken from them, is themselves. If the results will "not be pretty", there will be no end to songs about them in our lifetime and maybe that of our children and grandchildren -- the kind of songs that would excactly not get written about people with cushy finance jobs, not even once. This isn't meant as snark against you, it's a compliment for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebKrqHdJaak

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#173

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:10 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #153

AFascistWorld wrote: post #140

The “Post-Truth” Publication Where Chinese Students in America Get Their News https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-trut...

A summary of College Daily rebuttal to the piece: https://supchina.com/2019/08/21/college-daily-fires-back-at-...

I... don't see the rebuttal. There is no demonstration on inaccuracies in the original reporting, just a bunch of complaining about bias.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#174

Post by avocado4 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:10 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

You're right about the Chinese having lives through an economic miracle. But it's important to remember that the miracle was in large due to China's liberalization and integration into global markets under D Xiaoping, J Zemin, and H Jintao. Xi Jinping decided he didn't like the order, made himself an emperor, embraced extreme race-based mercantilistic nationalism and is hell bent on destroying the liberal world order which lifted millions out of poverty in the first place.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#175

Post by liuliu » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

nailer wrote: post #114

ackbar03 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree and glad this comment is at the top, so many western commentators don't understand this. The Chinese people are aware they live in a autocratic regime but they didn't build up their country into an economic powerhouse by complaining about freedom of speech all day like western countries. They put their head down and got to work and made do with what they had. When ridiculous censorship rules like bannin…

I thought Chinese economic gain was due to the US government opening up relations with the Chinese government as a way of countering the Soviet Union. I'm not sure how much credit the Chinese Communist Party deserves for that.

There are certain ironies. I don't think you can attribute the initial growth in 1980s to the U.S. investments. The initial growth in 1980s was largely driven by Hong Kong and Taiwan investments.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#176

Post by khc » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest."

Almost everything in these sentences are wrong. It's not just the young people who are protesting in Hong Kong, and most people in Hong Kong have never been born into wealth. There's a great divide between the wealthy and the poor and that's always been the case even in British time.

Source: I was born in Hong Kong 30+ years ago and our family of 4 shared a bunk bed in a room that's probably not much bigger than 100sqft

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#177

Post by ferest » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

If the media still kept connecting the group behavior to government propaganda, it's never going to get any closer to the reason behind this. The Chinese students in western world are not just showed up in recent 5-10 years, a logic from "they have different opinions" to "they must be brainwashed by their evil government" is pretty ignorant, or rather naive. I think the right question to ask here is why they were not heard before.

hypothesis 1, they were silenced. Chinese students were in great disadvantage no matter in population or in capital compare with groups holding different ideas. The students from hong kong, taiwan are more exposed to the western world because there were more chance they could get into the social groups financially - think if there are person in your social group paid 10x less than yours, and emotionally - you might have visited there because it's easier to get in and out and enjoy as foreigner. Media tend to report things you might interest with, either it might show up in your day to day life, or those odds could catch your eyes - people pays more attention to stories from those escaped from mid-east than those actually living in mid-east. This factor changed in recent years, because both number and wealth have been increased a lot for Chinese students. hypothesis 2, they silenced themselves. The culture difference, language disadvantage and huge gap on life quality, the 1st generation migrants are tend to stay low profile - the mexico migrants also had that in history. This factor also changed a lot in recent years.

These two factors exist in all minority groups.

Back to this topic itself, Chinese students are heard now(and ironically thanks to their HK peers), and why they hold different opinions?

The Chinese students' background could be vary, but one thing is in common - they were from China, and the CPC ruled China helped their family gained wealth so they could stand in the same street with you. Due to the same reason, they are naturally more vigilant when the medias are reporting news completely fell into one side, and when they are trying to find different view, there is state media - the same thing happens in US, the media are pushing people either towards right or left, especially when the a situation can't be simply marked as "good" or "bad", being labeled negatively make them join the group protecting their identities. Not even mention for this generation, HK has been part of China since they start understanding the world, they would try to look at the similarity between them and hker, meanwhile hker were still showing off their superiority (like girlfriend who keep showing gift from her ex)

Everyone has their rights to express their opinions. But the role media playing that divides us, is more dangerous

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#178

Post by markus_zhang » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

guardiangod wrote: post #121

markus_zhang wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.

>They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. So did the Soviet Union. They lifted hundreds of millions of people from the ruinous World World 2 to a modern industrial society. It's what happened after _that_ that warrants concern. Another argument is that, yes, CCP did lift most of the population out of subsistence poverty, but can another Party do better? Can the Ta…

For your last question. Can you swear to the police or even hit him with you hand without much fear? You can do that in China...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#179

Post by nailer » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:15 AM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #72

markus_zhang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million peopl…

Authoritarianism breeds corruption. When the next scandal hits, and the corruption is revealed, maybe the citizens will revolt (again) against the CCP.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#180

Post by germainelol » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 2:16 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

"For young Hong Kongers however, they didn't live during British rule. They were born into wealth, and now their own career prospects (like many millenials around the world) aren't great. So they protest."

Everything here is just wrong...Are the elder citizens also protesting? Yes. Were today's young protestors born into wealth? No. Are they protesting their career prospects? No. Are they protesting for their human rights? Yes.