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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#111

Post by scarmig »

dragonwriter wrote: post #74
scarmig wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something could have easily been lost in translation--on your end--there. For Taiwan in particular, there's a lot of nuance and purposeful ambiguity in its relationship with mainland China. The ROC's official policy is that Taiwan is just another province of China, which the ROC administers (along with part of Fujian province); the ROC, furthermore, is the legitimate government of all of China, including the island,…

> The ROC's official policy is that Taiwan is just another province of China, which the ROC administers (along with part of Fujian province); the ROC, furthermore, is the legitimate government of all of China To be fair, part of the reason that is the official policy is because the PRC is perceived to be (because it's pretty openly said this) more willing to be tolerant of dispute over which one governs all of China…

Of course. And if China pledged to respect the results of a unification vs independence referendum, independence would likely win in a landslide.

But the concrete disagreement mentioned in the comment I was responding to seemed to imply that the writer thought that his coworker might literally think that the ROC did not currently administer Taiwan, while she certainly does know that; it's a gap in understanding because the comment writer didn't realize that whether Taiwan a province of China is not how mainlanders conceptualize the dispute.

I would be curious to know if the average mainlander recognizes that most Taiwanese see themselves as having a separate identity and would ideally have a separate country, which is a real on-the-ground fact that I can imagine being glossed over in education and media.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#112

Post by markus_zhang »

zwaps wrote: post #93
markus_zhang wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just says how different views different people can have. I'm pretty sure it was eye opening for her too... I have been living in the West long enough to not argue those stuffs. The Chinese government has its bad and its good, but so far it's doing OK, and I can't imagine any other government could do better, or even on par.

Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries. The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independen…

I can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real. I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable.

Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good.

Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about these as I'll say you don't have true proofs and you will say I'm brainwashed, we will never agree to each other. Organ harvesting actually does happen, I can say for that, because I just read a report (in Chinese btw) a few days ago, but it was not large scale and definitely not in the ideology.

2) Suppressing free speech: Yes that's one of the bad, but TBH you can blame the government online as much as you want because so many other people are doing the same...people seldom got caught JUST because of that. For example. the protesters in HK was not even put into prison for some of their violent actions, and if that's not enough I really can't say more.

3) Questionable economic measures: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization?

4) Strongarming other independent countries: Not a new thing, pretty much every government of the world is doing the same thing since like...beginning of civilization? Just the real world, more the reason that people should work hard instead of dreaming about vacations to fight off these strongarmings. TBH with the economic strength of China it is quite peaceful...

In short, citizens are indeed able to express their unhappy with the government, and a lot of people (in the mainland) protest, too. The weird thing about my western friends is that they seem to be pretty scared about China, and I honestly can't tell why...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#113

Post by tareqak »

In times like this one, I think it is important to revisit the Allegory of the Cave [0][1]. Try to think about the cave as wherever you personally started your own education instead of broadening it to any given country. Once you have an idea of what that is and what that is not, imagine that that entire universe (cave, outside the cave, etc) itself being encompassed within yet another cave and world outside that cave. What if there is yet another cave and another world outside the cave wrapping this second one? And so on.

Update: I guess another thing to think about would be what if someone in at one depth of the cave tried to take someone out from within what seems to them a deeper level of the cave? And the opposite, what if someone from the cave tried to reach out of the cave and bring someone they think is in what appears to be a cave to them to their own cave.

Another update: The last link in the posted article is an interesting read in terms of the actions people take when they start thinking that they were inside a cave [2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

[1] https://web.stanford.edu/class/ihum40/cave.pdf

[2] https://supchina.com/2019/05/01/truth-hidden-in-the-dark-chi...

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#114

Post by nailer »

ackbar03 wrote: post #104
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

Totally agree and glad this comment is at the top, so many western commentators don't understand this. The Chinese people are aware they live in a autocratic regime but they didn't build up their country into an economic powerhouse by complaining about freedom of speech all day like western countries. They put their head down and got to work and made do with what they had. When ridiculous censorship rules like bannin…

I thought Chinese economic gain was due to the US government opening up relations with the Chinese government as a way of countering the Soviet Union. I'm not sure how much credit the Chinese Communist Party deserves for that.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#115

Post by scarmig »

markus_zhang wrote: post #112
zwaps wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries. The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independen…

I can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real . I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable. Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good. Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about th…

The state-sponsored organ theft is speculative, both in extent and purpose.

But the concentration camps for Uyghers are well-documented, and they really can't be grouped with the organ donation claims. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps .

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#116

Post by est »

naringas wrote: post #87
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

I wonder what a person from Taiwan might think

Taiwan is a province which currently under control Republic of China, another province is Fujian. So yeah technically Taiwan is a province of China.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#117

Post by markus_zhang »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #107
bidluo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend is the same, this Hong Kong issue has been quite the discussion point whenever something news worthy happens. I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs has been swayed by western propaganda but she believes China is not in the wrong here, she knows loosely about 1984 and is aware of what's happening with muslims but with HK she and a lot of my other mainland friends think the protesters are destroying everythi…

Everyone feels a lack of free speech about issues they want to discuss. The hard part is establishing a shared understanding that some issues you'd like to discuss will always end up being inconvenient to the powers that be. Most Chinese citizens I've seen discuss the issue argue that they're simply immune to the problem; that as long as you're a responsible person just trying to live a good life, the government won'…

True. Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. For one, how do you know the things you being fed are real? And what are you going to do if it's real/not real? Just venting?

If you don't like the leadership, there are plenty of other ways to improve that, but talking is the cheapest.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#118

Post by unscaled »

whoevercares wrote: post #100
notyourday wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million peopl…

Uh...you probably don’t know that Chineses have a nickname for the Russian ethnic group: the race of true fighters(战斗种族). On the other hand, Han Chinese is especially bad at rebellion, being conquered multiple times from the north in the history

If we looked at the past though, the Han Chinese did rebel many times, both agains conquering (e.g. the Yuan and Qing) and native dynasties and these rebellions were often successful.

When you think about it, even the current CCP regime started as a rebel army.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#119

Post by nailer »

bidluo wrote: post #82
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

My girlfriend is the same, this Hong Kong issue has been quite the discussion point whenever something news worthy happens. I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs has been swayed by western propaganda but she believes China is not in the wrong here, she knows loosely about 1984 and is aware of what's happening with muslims but with HK she and a lot of my other mainland friends think the protesters are destroying everythi…

What does she think of Tiananmen Square?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#120

Post by markus_zhang »

tlb wrote: post #46
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

Any entity involving millions of people is never just one thing. So if you start with the premise that an entity like Taiwan "is" something and therefore "is not" another thing, you're setting yourself up to be wrong no matter which thing you decide it is. The only thing it "is", for sure, is complicated.

Upvoted. Not sure why you got downvoted.
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