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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#71

Post by glbrew »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you regarding HK and Ukraine. In the short run, yes, the powerful people (China, Putin) will win. In the long run, will Putin and his cronies continue to have the economic power to strong arm all of Ukraine? I highly doubt it. In the long run will the CPC continue to pull 100m's in poverty into wealth while protecting their failing water systems, soil systems, international good will? Again, I highly doubt it. I think the long term is in favor of HK and Ukraine, not against it.

Edit: And regarding Occupy, it is often considered the most successful protest in modern Western history. Countless leaders and young people have seen it as a blueprint and guide to how to continue their struggle. I have seen dozens if not hundreds of videos on youtube that cite the enormous progress Occupy made on how to run a successful protest in the current era, and movements such as Extinction Rebellion are going to take those tactics to another level.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#72

Post by notyourday »

markus_zhang wrote: post #52
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies.

Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million people so if 10% of them switch sides the other side gets 13 million people with bullets who aren't friendly to the party line.

That's exactly how the USSR fell. Population stopped supporting the government.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#73

Post by Joakal »

ryanobjc wrote: post #64
bgee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…

So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?

It's probably not their fault. There was a leaked propaganda document saying to portray HongKong people as violent rioters, censor police brutality and censor mentions of protestors apologizing for disruptions.

Look at Youtube channels like CGTN and Nathan Rich to see what they hear and you'll know what they don't hear.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#74

Post by dragonwriter »

scarmig wrote: post #66
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

Something could have easily been lost in translation--on your end--there. For Taiwan in particular, there's a lot of nuance and purposeful ambiguity in its relationship with mainland China. The ROC's official policy is that Taiwan is just another province of China, which the ROC administers (along with part of Fujian province); the ROC, furthermore, is the legitimate government of all of China, including the island,…

> The ROC's official policy is that Taiwan is just another province of China, which the ROC administers (along with part of Fujian province); the ROC, furthermore, is the legitimate government of all of China

To be fair, part of the reason that is the official policy is because the PRC is perceived to be (because it's pretty openly said this) more willing to be tolerant of dispute over which one governs all of China (which the PRC can't reasonably lose barring some radical inversion of power) than Taiwan declaring independence, such that the latter would be more likely to lead to war to settle the dispute.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#75

Post by seanmcdirmid »

codeswap wrote: post #59
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

To be fair "Taiwan simply another province of China." is the official positive of the Taiwan government also

That is the official stance of the ROC, along with outer Mongolia. It isn’t the popular perception among the 70% of Taiwanese who do not consider themselves mainlanders, including many of those currently in political office.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#76

Post by rolltiide »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

> After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge.

This is why I get up in the morning, goals

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#77

Post by markus_zhang »

notyourday wrote: post #72
markus_zhang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I don't think it is correct. Chinese people truly are in a support of China's leaders and China's policies, just like Soviet people were in support of the Soviet policies. Had it not been the case, there would have been no government capable of stopping the rebellion: if one solider can control a 100 citizens (via say bullets) then in order to control 1.3 billion, China would need to give bullets to 130 million peopl…

Yes it's true. Chinese government actually learned a lot from the Soviet government so that it survived.

Plus Soviet was actually brought down by many of the high officials themselves.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#78

Post by Joakal »

markus_zhang wrote: post #67
Joakal wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know it's doing good when they have a reputation for censor and change narratives to suit their agenda?

They also have a reputation of carrying billions of people out from poverty and to prosperity. Of course the credit mostly goes to the people, but still it's something. Sure I don't like the censorship and change narratives, but most governments do the same thing. Let me know if you find one government that is both competent and honest.

There's none. That's why people rely on elections and news to hear about events even if they are not favourable to the government. Better informed people can then keep the bastards honest.

When you don't have either, what can you do about it?

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#79

Post by tareqak »

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #42
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

I think you're right. I'm originally from Egypt and we see this discrepancy between generations. Older generation who lived through not just economic turmoil but political turmoil and war somehow totally OK with repressive (but stable) autocratic/military rule. Younger generation (myself included) care about civil liberties and tend to be anti-regime. (Really broad generalizations, of course, but generally true).

In my personal experience as a person of Bangladeshi origin, a similar outlook and generational divide exists concerning the role of a job/career and the expectations one has of it with respect to an individual's happiness.

Update: added my origin to narrow the scope of my comment.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#80

Post by bgee »

ryanobjc wrote: post #64
bgee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…

So, most of the world sees the protests as obviously about freedom, and freedom from Chinese rule. That you cannot see that... well... who is more likely to be wrong here? Perhaps you have been incentivized not to learn how to think critically about social and governmental affairs, second and third order effects and consequences?

The protesters have very specific demands, why do we need to guess? If most of the citizens actually demand full independence, I'm sure they will make themselves heard, like what they are doing now.

And who are "most of the world"? Has the world reached a unified conclusion on what the people of Hong Kong want?

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