Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…
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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
131–140 of 376 posts
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#132One of my colleagues was a stanford-undergraduate, harvard-grad-school (at the time biochemistry postdoc) who grew up in china. He was somehow fed information that Muslims don't eat pork because they worship pigs. I tried to correct him but he was insistent that he was correct. An otherwise extremely intelligent human who had no difficulty reconciling conflicting evidence and information (e.g. in science)
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uh...you probably don’t know that Chineses have a nickname for the Russian ethnic group: the race of true fighters(战斗种族). On the other hand, Han Chinese is especially bad at rebellion, being conquered multiple times from the north in the history
If we looked at the past though, the Han Chinese did rebel many times, both agains conquering (e.g. the Yuan and Qing) and native dynasties and these rebellions were often successful. When you think about it, even the current CCP regime started as a rebel army.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#134From my PoV, the protesters should target the big families instead of targeting the mainland government/people. I mean why give your support to anyone who blames you, and unjust-fully? Let alone that many protesters are indeed violent...
Wow, shill much? Well now you are receiving an informal education on how propaganda is used to separate people from each other, and make enemies where shared goals should exist. Like all educations, you get out of it as much as you put in to it. Good luck.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why can't you imagine anyone do better? It is easy to see all the good things that happened in China in the last decades, and see the things that work. But I can very easily imagine a better government in China, much like I can do so for the US and in EU countries. The CCP is running literal concentration camps, is suppressing free speech, using (possibly) questionable economic measures, strongarming other independen…
I can't any imagine any other real government can do better. Sorry forgot to put real . I don't follow ideas unless it's actionable. You can imagine a lot of good things for sure, but won't be useful if not actionable. Like I said, it has its good and bad, but generally I think it's OK. I didn't say it's all good. Now let's look at the list: 1) Concentration camps and organ harvesting: I'm not going to argue about th…
I would also argue that China has been strongarming other countries in excess to any other nation except for the USA in recent decades. China is the only country that uses face and "people's feelings" as distinct political instruments. But this is also not my main point and also not the point of the OP.
For the other things, let me make two points. First, your assertion that this also happens in other countries does not make it okay. This is a fallacy often used. What I am saying is that the rate and fashion to how these things are reporting on, protested against, and dealt with in other countries, is much different than in China. It is a fact that many bad things happen in Western countries right this moment. But the people arrested or disappearing for pointing these things out is pretty much zero. I was just on business in the US, and watching MSNBC and Fox News at the same time, it's clear that there is a huge range for opinions on literally all political and economic actions and actors - and they are strongly voiced. Indeed the US has a strong culture of government distrust and conspiracy theorists that simply would not exist in China. In (most of) the EU, measures done by the CCP could never even be implemented at all, as neither the political force. executive capabilities, nor the acceptance in the population exists in such a way. But even if these things would be implemented, you could always find a country that does things better, treats people better and is more humane. So I think this framing is really useless, whether we argue about China, the USA or Sweden.
Second, why are people afraid of China? We are afraid because we do not want the Chinese model to succeed. As much as it helped pull people from poverty, it has created and cemented an incredibly wealthy and powerful upper class, and we are rightfully worried that our own elites take some hints. We are not scared of Chinese soldiers marching into our country, but if China would develop similar cultural hegemony as the US has currently, our world would be be much worse (at least for me, as I am a minority). China violates very basic tenets of human rights that we believe enable us to live freely. China also implements the mechanisms necessary to push strongly the will of the majority on the minority - or to be more precise, the will of someone on anyone. Again, I only need to mention the very real plight of Muslims in China - "uniformize or perish" - for you to hopefully see this point. This very same thing could happen easily elsewhere, and indeed we have seen it happen in the past. You may, for example, want to google the term "Stasi" if you have the time.
Its a tiresome trope, but people valuing a free society will always be deadly afraid that living with a boot on their necks is an actual viable political and economic model, because if it is, what's keeping history from swinging exactly that way? Free and tolerant societies are the exception in history and we - especially minorities in any sense - would like that to change! Is it a pipe dream? Maybe - but that's exactly where this fear comes from. It is probably difficult to understand this point if you belong to both a local and (eventually) globally dominant grouping.
Finally, as to your first sentence: I think it is ALSO easy to propose many actionable and easy measures to make things better in China, for example, stop doing the things we agree are "bad". And many countries or governments are not doing these things. So I ask again, why can you not imagine anything better? And furthermore, where would we be if we can not imagine anything better?
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#136Or how many Russians don't understand why Ukraine for example is upset. Is as if propaganda works. Who would have thought. Once I was discussing with a Chinese colleague and the Tiananmen subject came up (it was in the news, I didn't bring it up), and he told me that the students were not that innocent either, that they killed 150 soldiers the night before. I asked him, how could some students with rocks kill 150 sol…
As a Chinese American, I've noticed that propaganda is everywhere and we all need to be wary of it. Tiananmen is often brought up, but did you know that the US experienced a parallel event? I didn't learn about this in US history class, but apparently soldiers fired upon unarmed student protesters in the Kent State shooting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
and also compare "Twenty-eight guardsmen fired approximately 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds" with this, which itself is just a tip of the iceberg: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cth1c0/reposting_...
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#137I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…
I'm not quite as pessimistic as you regarding HK and Ukraine. In the short run, yes, the powerful people (China, Putin) will win. In the long run, will Putin and his cronies continue to have the economic power to strong arm all of Ukraine? I highly doubt it. In the long run will the CPC continue to pull 100m's in poverty into wealth while protecting their failing water systems, soil systems, international good will?…
And if HK and China do eventually become liberal democracies, it'll be because of gradual change within the Chinese government.
I'm personally very optimistic about their long term prospects, I just think history has taught us that violent revolution or sudden change usually leads to negative consequences in the short to mid term. There's more than enough examples in our lifetime.
On the other hand, most of the economic gains, the reduction of poverty around the world, the economic development of Europe, Asia and Africa have all been done thanks to the rule of law, relative peace, investment, etc... Not due to revolution.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you're right. I'm originally from Egypt and we see this discrepancy between generations. Older generation who lived through not just economic turmoil but political turmoil and war somehow totally OK with repressive (but stable) autocratic/military rule. Younger generation (myself included) care about civil liberties and tend to be anti-regime. (Really broad generalizations, of course, but generally true).
In my personal experience as a person of Bangladeshi origin, a similar outlook and generational divide exists concerning the role of a job/career and the expectations one has of it with respect to an individual's happiness. Update: added my origin to narrow the scope of my comment.
If Hong Kong protestors just followed the path of non violence without attacking China's sovereignty or accepting that they are first Chinese citizen and showing their discontent, it would have been different.
Why Hong Kong is protesting is another reason, which still has roots in economic dissatisfaction.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ask them to read many sources. Point out that it costs too much to manipulate many media. Careful with asking this as you are risking their life and their family/friends: Ask them when they started hearing about the HongKong protests (China initially censored HongKong protests)? Are they aware that HongKong had been seeking democracy and/or independence for a long time even under UK rule? Have they read about Wukan D…
> independence for a long time even under UK rule? From my understanding, most protesters do not seek independence from China . Do you have evidence to back your sentence up? It's a common misunderstanding in mainland and rest of the world outside of Hong Kong to assume that the (majority of) people of Hong Kong wants independence when they are protecting about a very specific extradition bill. Disclaimer: I'm mainla…
The extradition bill is just the latest one.
Many protestors have explicitly called for independence. Most are simply demanding things that are not possible with HK as a mainland managed province with the current powers that be in Beijing, and I can't imagine that they don't know this - it's a de facto desire for independence.
If the ROC was magically in charge, then HK probably wouldn't care about being independent.
Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests
#140https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-trut...