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Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

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Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#201

Post by FDSGSG »

tomatocracy wrote: post #188
FDSGSG wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, at Autobahn speeds (~155mph) both the 3 and S seemed way noisier than a 3L straight-six BMW 7er. Tons of road noise, tons of wind noise. Although the Teslas had worse tires on them.

Part of the problem with Tesla though is that things like the stock tyres really aren't as good as they should be for a car costing what they do.

Tesla isn't the only one making poor tire choices, the BMW G12 came with awful noisy all season run-flats. At least they were rated for appropriate speeds though.

Given that Tesla isn't even trying to make nice cars the bad tires seem far less surprising.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#202

Post by marvin »

greedo wrote: post #189
mikeash wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It compares to the Model Y in size but to the Model X on price. This doesn’t seem like a winning combination. Edit: that’s a bit too glib. I’m sure it’ll do just fine as a niche product for a certain group of buyers, which is what Jaguar is all about. It’s just not really competing with Tesla, which is trying hard to go after the mass market.

Based on sales, I still consider Tesla a niche. The Camry sells about 3x the Model 3. When you compare the M3/S to all of Nissan/Toyota/Honda/Kia/Hyundai/Mazda/Acura/Infinity/BMW/MB/VW-Audi sales in the US, it's a drop in the bucket. And that's just "imported" cars. Add US automakers and it drops even further. EDIT- Forgot about Honda and the Korean car makers too.

Model 3 was the 4th top selling car in the USA when measured by revenue, for 2018 as a whole, assuming this CleanTechnica article managed to estimate the average selling price to reasonable accuracy in January this year.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/28/tesla-model-3-1-best-se...

That's certainly not a drop in the bucket, and I think it's a stretch to call it niche as well. Will be interesting to see how 2019 as a whole turns out; with this ASP, they would dominate by revenue if their delivery numbers were anywhere close to the competition.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#203

Post by psychrometer »

tryitnow wrote: post #182
lowdose wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what the same people also said about Amazon.

My understanding is that amazon was basically cash flow positive, but ran GAAP losses and never really "struggled" financially. Whereas Tesla does indeed have some systemic financial issues. In other words Amazon could have been "profitable" on a GAAP accounting basis fairly early on, but Tesla would struggle to do that.

Tesla makes a profit on every car that they sell[0].

There are more people wanting to buy Tesla's than they can currently produce[1].

Telsa needs to spend more money to increase production. They make money on each car sold and they can sell a lot more than they currently do. Tesla being in the red in order to increase production is the same scenario that Amazon was in.

[0] https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/07/26/tesla-management-t...

[1] https://electrek.co/2018/07/03/tesla-model-3-long-backlog-re...

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#204

Post by psychrometer »

clouddrover wrote: post #120
srfilipek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really weird and selective comparison. Tesla has sold 1.6x the number of Model 3's in the past 2 years than Nissan has sold Leaf's... ever. Sources (US): * 136K Leafs: http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/nissan/nissan-leaf... * 223K Model 3s: http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-...

Those are only US sales. The Leaf has sold over 400,000 globally: https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/287096-nissan-leaf-ev-40...

The Nissan Leaf launched in 2010. The Tesla Model 3 launched in 2017.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#205

Post by adrianmonk »

threeseed wrote: post #7

Terrible article: 1) It's only about the US. 2) Tesla's big seller is the Model 3 which isn't a competitor for the Audi e-tron and I-Pace. And given the size difference probably isn't a competitor for the Model X either. 3) No one is claiming to be a Tesla killer since no one really has direct 3, X, S, Y competitors. The existing car companies are all off doing their own thing e.g. VW ID.3 (hatchback), Hyundai Kona (…

Matching Tesla's models head to head isn't the only conceivable strategy for taking the electric car market from them.

It presupposes that Tesla has chosen to target the right market segments with the right type of products, and all you have to do to win is make better versions of those products.

I'm not saying that Tesla hasn't chosen correctly. Maybe their product lineup is optimal or maybe it isn't. I'm just saying that your criticism of the article is based on this assumption.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#206

Post by skellington »

clouddrover wrote: post #138
bryanlarsen wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. The table in the article you linked shows Tesla way ahead of everything else. Did you like the right article?

No, the Teslas are behind the Hyundais and the I-Pace in What Car?'s "Real Range" test cycle. Here's a better link: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7137701/Bes... https://whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-... What Car? claims its test cycle is more realistic and more representative of actual range. The best Tesla finishes fourth. The Kia e-Niro is equal second with the Jaguar I-Pace…

Well, they didn't include any of Tesla's long range models and i-pace owners have been saying (on forums) that their real world range is much less than the official number.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#207

Post by avgDev »

nimbius wrote: post #35
kenhwang wrote: post #25

That's an interesting interpretation of the data. To me, it looks like Model S/X sales have noticeably dropped since the introduction of the Jaguar and Audi. I don't think there will be a singular Tesla killer, but rather, Tesla is increasingly going to be attacked by all sides: Hyundai/Nissan/GM on the mass market side, Jaguar/Audi/Mercedes/BMW on the luxury side, and Porsche on the ultra luxury high end. The Model…

Another aspect is repair. Speaking as someone who works full time as an engine mechanic, sourcing parts or even being allowed to do repair work for a Tesla is a tedious process. Everything comes from one factory with no distribution network, so a door panel repair can take months to fix . In contrast, I can get nearly any part for an Audi delivered to the shop in 2 days and the digital books for service interval and…

I considered a Tesla but Tesla simply sucks as a car company. Body gaps are quite bad, apparently a bit improved on model 3. However, TFL (youtube car review channel) damaged a quarter panel/bumper on their car. It took 4-5 months for the whole repair because waiting on parts. This is simply unacceptable. I cannot comprehend who would want to own a car like that.

Plus, there was a guy rebuilding a crashed model S and had issues sourcing some components, then Tesla gave him issues activating the car.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#208

Post by icelancer »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #93
icelancer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes those companies will solve the energy storage issue in a reasonable amount of time. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Tesla does a lot of shit wrong, but Musk is ahead of people RE: batteries and energy storage importance. I am reminded of Bezos saying that their headstart in AWS with no viable competitor for years and years on end is what catapulted Amazon to what it is today. Tesla has a shot of making th…

I'm not convinced. My prediction is Tesla will be a subsidiary of one of the big car companies within a decade, probably one of the laggards.

I actually think this is the most likely outcome as well.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#209

Post by Fins »

lazyjones wrote: post #96
acd wrote: post #28

Toyota and Volkswagen will make more affordable higher quality main stream electric cars.

Perhaps in 3,5,10 years. But if you want to buy now, you'll have to be very emotional about it if you don't consider Tesla's cars the best option.

Only if the compromises in a Tesla do not outweigh the presence of fart jokes (well, and no oil changes).

But then, I just honestly do not see how anyone in good conscience could give even a red cent to Elon.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#210

Post by green-eclipse »

lowdose wrote: post #165
green-eclipse wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla seems to have the advantage that investors are willing to supply it with endless amounts of cash to fuel it's unprofitable operations year after year. In its 16 year history, it has never turned an annual profit. It has lost billions and billions of dollars. Tesla just received another $2 billion lifeline infusion earlier this year. Other automakers have to play by more sane financial rules.

That's exactly what the same people also said about Amazon.

That's a nice story, but the numbers don't support the narrative. Tesla's been reporting revenue for 13 years (that I can find). So I took the first 13 years of both Tesla and Amazon financials. Amazon was breakeven by year 7. Telsa is just losing more money as time goes on. (Apologies for bad HN formatting). Here's the data:

Tesla annual net income, in millions:

Year 1: -$78

Year 2: -$82

Year 3: -$56

Year 4: -$154

Year 5: -$254

Year 6: -$396

Year 7: -$74

Year 8: -$294

Year 9: -$889

Year 10: -$675

Year 11: -$1,961

Year 12: -$976

Q1+Q2 Year 13: -$1110

Amazon annual net income, in millions (rounded):

Year 1: $0

Year 2: -$100

Year 3: -$700

Year 4: -$1400

Year 5: -$600

Year 6: -$100

Year 7: $0

Year 8: $600

Year 9: $400

Year 10: $200

Year 11: $500

Year 12: $600

Year 13: $900

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