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Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

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Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#151

Post by mikeash »

pmorici wrote: post #117
threeseed wrote: post #7

Terrible article: 1) It's only about the US. 2) Tesla's big seller is the Model 3 which isn't a competitor for the Audi e-tron and I-Pace. And given the size difference probably isn't a competitor for the Model X either. 3) No one is claiming to be a Tesla killer since no one really has direct 3, X, S, Y competitors. The existing car companies are all off doing their own thing e.g. VW ID.3 (hatchback), Hyundai Kona (…

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

Official range numbers come from a government testing cycle (EPA in the US), so you should get the listed range under more or less the same conditions with any car.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#152

Post by FDSGSG »

booi wrote: post #12
clouddrover wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Compare the Mercedes EQC to the Tesla Model X. The EQC is quieter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13mNkRtdK84 The EQC has more sophisticated headlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZMNkMadYTQ And the EQC has voice control (although they really need a better triggering phrase than "Mercedes"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTew1D5Tk8 I think Tesla's main problem now is that the major car companies will…

People have been saying this for 5 years now and Tesla didn’t even invent the electric car. Also... who complains about how loud a Tesla is?

Dunno, at Autobahn speeds (~155mph) both the 3 and S seemed way noisier than a 3L straight-six BMW 7er.

Tons of road noise, tons of wind noise. Although the Teslas had worse tires on them.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#153

Post by mikeash »

jaxn wrote: post #132
michaelt wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia calls the Model X, I-Pace and Model 3 "Mid-size luxury crossover SUV", "Compact luxury crossover SUV" and "Compact executive car" respectively. The I-Pace has 8% less length, 8% less height, and 12% less weight than the Model X 90D. The widths are comparable. The I-Pace has 9% more width, 9% more height, and 15% more weight than the Model 3 Range AWD. The lengths are comparable. I would say this puts the I-…

So the accurate comparison is the i-Pace and the Model Y. Jaguar beat Tesla to market by 12-18 months in the segment. Will be interesting to see if they can capitalize on the head start.

It compares to the Model Y in size but to the Model X on price. This doesn’t seem like a winning combination.

Edit: that’s a bit too glib. I’m sure it’ll do just fine as a niche product for a certain group of buyers, which is what Jaguar is all about. It’s just not really competing with Tesla, which is trying hard to go after the mass market.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#154

Post by llampx »

Finnucane wrote: post #136

Why do they need to 'kill' Tesla? The long-term potential market for electric cars is presumably large enough for a number of competitors to exist in it. If it isn't, then it's going to be hard for anyone to make money at it.

My cynical side says that if they manage to kill Tesla, they can go back to the leisurely pace of updates that suits them. Say hello to 100km batteries being standard, with 300km and 400km packs sold as premium extras.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#155

Post by mikeash »

taneq wrote: post #57
kenhwang wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened with the Model 3 in 2019 that would cause the drop off in 2019 sales? If anything, the Model 3 would've impacted sales from 2017-onward when it was introduced.

They only started delivering Model 3s in any significant numbers around the end of 2018.

And the cheaper SR+ version only became available this year.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#156

Post by throwaway156503 »

kenhwang wrote: post #25

That's an interesting interpretation of the data. To me, it looks like Model S/X sales have noticeably dropped since the introduction of the Jaguar and Audi. I don't think there will be a singular Tesla killer, but rather, Tesla is increasingly going to be attacked by all sides: Hyundai/Nissan/GM on the mass market side, Jaguar/Audi/Mercedes/BMW on the luxury side, and Porsche on the ultra luxury high end. The Model…

> That’s sorta Honda/Toyota territory.

A kid in my office said the same thing and I have no idea where people are getting this from. A brand new Model 3 costs about as much as an Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, or Mercedes-Benz C-Class.

The Model 3 is a compact executive car, and competes directly in that category. It is for the mass affluent. Not the mass market.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#157

Post by FDSGSG »

virgilp wrote: post #30
clouddrover wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who complains about how loud a Tesla is? People who have driven in a Mercedes EQC.

I.e. the Mercedes CEO? Also for the other two.... really? Who t.f. wants voice control in their car? Better lights are nice, sure... but it's a minor improvement (most people drive most of the time by day, and even by night, all car lights are "good enough". I paid 2K EUR to get better lights in my car, and they're great when I have to use them, but even I wouldn't have picked my car based on this criteria.... I even…

> Better lights are nice, sure... but it's a minor improvement

I love my fancy $10k headlights, they're a huge improvement when speeding through euro highways in the middle of the night. There's just nowhere for the cops (or anything else) to hide.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#158

Post by mikeash »

rlpb wrote: post #97
gibolt wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Range anxiety is definitely a thing, especially if you've never driven an EV and have heard it exists. The issue is a non-issue for most Tesla buyers who have home charging. The situation will hopefully resolve itself unquestionably in the next 2-3 years.

As a potential EV buyer, what concerns me is that a quoted 200 mile range sounds more like a 100 mile range after five years (so an older battery) in winter (when I'll want heating). That would limit me to driving only 50 miles from my home without having to alter my plans around charging, and I would want to add some contingency so perhaps that'd end up being 30 miles in practice. Feel free to tell me that I'm being…

For what it’s worth, my 4.5 year old Model S has lost less than 2% of its original range.

You can’t compare with cheap electronic gadgets. Those push their batteries hard and do nothing to manage their temperature. Some EVs are similarly stupid; the Leaf, for example, is notorious for losing capacity fast. But good EVs will last much longer.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#159

Post by clouddrover »

kylecordes wrote: post #146
clouddrover wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the Teslas are behind the Hyundais and the I-Pace in What Car?'s "Real Range" test cycle. Here's a better link: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7137701/Bes... https://whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-... What Car? claims its test cycle is more realistic and more representative of actual range. The best Tesla finishes fourth. The Kia e-Niro is equal second with the Jaguar I-Pace…

That's a pretty nice test cycle. But they oddly hobbled Tesla by choosing the model 3 variant that substantially sacrifices range for performance (mostly with an inefficient but fun wheel+tire). If they had chosen one of the other Model 3 variants it would have likely been #1 by some margin, yet still with significantly higher performance than the other top contenders. On the plus side, the fact there is competition…

> But they oddly hobbled Tesla by choosing the model 3 variant that substantially sacrifices range for performance

Maybe, maybe not. On the EPA test cycle the Model 3 Long Range and the Model 3 Performance all wheel drive models both claim a range of 310 miles. But on the WLTP test cycle the Long Range gets 348 miles and the Performance gets 329 miles. The rear wheel drive Model 3 Long Range was discontinued.

It'd be interesting to see the comparison under What Car?'s test cycle but they might end up pretty similar to each other.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#160

Post by magicalhippo »

rlpb wrote: post #141
magicalhippo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My BMW i3 has an 8 year 80% battery warranty. Tesla does very well with their battery management. Leaf is not so great, but far from 50% at 5 years unless you mistreat it AFAIK. Yes, winter will reduce range. I had a worst-case trip this year, it was around -18 C outside and I had not had a chance to pre-heat the batteries. Car was 99% charged, showing 200 km range initially. After some 135 km the car showed about 10…

Thank you for writing that up. It is useful to consider a real-world scenario from an existing EV owner that has some real data. > Leaf is not so great, but far from 50% at 5 years unless you mistreat it AFAIK. I got to 50% by combining reduced range from an old battery with reduced range from winter use. > about 63% So 80% (your battery warranty minimum) of 63% is 50.4%, so was my 50% guess spot on then, or have I m…

> so was my 50% guess spot on then

Yeah I misread your text slightly.

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