Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#141

Post by rlpb » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:55 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #118

rlpb wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a potential EV buyer, what concerns me is that a quoted 200 mile range sounds more like a 100 mile range after five years (so an older battery) in winter (when I'll want heating). That would limit me to driving only 50 miles from my home without having to alter my plans around charging, and I would want to add some contingency so perhaps that'd end up being 30 miles in practice. Feel free to tell me that I'm being…

My BMW i3 has an 8 year 80% battery warranty. Tesla does very well with their battery management. Leaf is not so great, but far from 50% at 5 years unless you mistreat it AFAIK. Yes, winter will reduce range. I had a worst-case trip this year, it was around -18 C outside and I had not had a chance to pre-heat the batteries. Car was 99% charged, showing 200 km range initially. After some 135 km the car showed about 10…

Thank you for writing that up. It is useful to consider a real-world scenario from an existing EV owner that has some real data.

> Leaf is not so great, but far from 50% at 5 years unless you mistreat it AFAIK.

I got to 50% by combining reduced range from an old battery with reduced range from winter use.

> about 63%

So 80% (your battery warranty minimum) of 63% is 50.4%, so was my 50% guess spot on then, or have I missed something?

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#142

Post by skellington » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:58 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #128

Ex Jaguar employee here: The I-Pace is a great car however they can't produce enough of them for demand (the waiting list was around 8 months when I left and was growing). The tooling in most of the factories is still configured for ICE and they are now repurposing some of the car factories in the midlands to be dedicated to electric vehicles. EVs are still luxury market focussed, even with my salary I couldn't affor…

Uh no, there is at least a six month supply of i-paces at US dealers now because nobody is buying them. The i-pace is actually quite nice, but terrible efficiency and no charger network makes it a tough sell.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#143

Post by tirant » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:59 PM UTC

pja wrote: post #129

pmorici wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. BMW electric Mini is due to go on the market in spring 2020 - they’re manufacturing them now in Oxford. I guess that counts as a 'real electric car'. Whether it’s a great one remains to be seen.…

I would say for the Mini range is not as important as for a Model 3. They are supposed to be city cars with a very specific design and great handling. They are usually way more expensive than competition with similar specs, but still sell a lot because of those two traits.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#144

Post by rjsw » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:00 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #117

threeseed wrote: post #7

Terrible article: 1) It's only about the US. 2) Tesla's big seller is the Model 3 which isn't a competitor for the Audi e-tron and I-Pace. And given the size difference probably isn't a competitor for the Model X either. 3) No one is claiming to be a Tesla killer since no one really has direct 3, X, S, Y competitors. The existing car companies are all off doing their own thing e.g. VW ID.3 (hatchback), Hyundai Kona (…

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

> For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge.

Normal European city driving then.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#145

Post by close04 » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

Nashooo wrote: post #124

close04 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most CUVs (or urban SUVs) don't really have as much cargo space as a combi. They are based on the platform of the "regular" sibling (sedan) but with the bigger wheels and axles taking up some of the interior space. The higher driving position comes at a price. To put it in context, a VW Golf Combi or Peugeot 308 SW have 10+% more cargo space in a package that's slightly longer and narrower than equivalent CUVs like S…

Skoda Karoq however can come with very easy (independent) removable backseats which creates a massive amount of cargo space.

With most cars you get the option to fold the backseat. In the examples above the 308 SW has 660/1775 liters, the Karoq has 521/1810 liters.

As you can see the Karoq offers marginally more space only with the seats folded. But that to me feels like an exceptional usage scenario rather than the rule. With the seats up the difference is pretty massive (the SW has ~30% more cargo space) and I think this is the more useful number if you're interested in cargo space. If you want a higher driving position, or better ground clearance, etc. a SW won't really do it.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#146

Post by kylecordes » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #138

bryanlarsen wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. The table in the article you linked shows Tesla way ahead of everything else. Did you like the right article?

No, the Teslas are behind the Hyundais and the I-Pace in What Car?'s "Real Range" test cycle. Here's a better link: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7137701/Bes... https://whatcar.com/news/what-car-real-range-which-electric-... What Car? claims its test cycle is more realistic and more representative of actual range. The best Tesla finishes fourth. The Kia e-Niro is equal second with the Jaguar I-Pace…

That's a pretty nice test cycle. But they oddly hobbled Tesla by choosing the model 3 variant that substantially sacrifices range for performance (mostly with an inefficient but fun wheel+tire).

If they had chosen one of the other Model 3 variants it would have likely been #1 by some margin, yet still with significantly higher performance than the other top contenders.

On the plus side, the fact there is competition at all is utterly wonderful. In the same test a few years ago it would've been all Teslas at the top.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#147

Post by bryanlarsen » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

pja wrote: post #129

pmorici wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. For example it was recently reported that the Jaguar I-pace requires that you drive 17 MPH with the climate control off to achieve the manufacture specified range per charge. [0] They have 6 mont…

When Tesla's competitors stop designing and electric car and start designing a really great car that just happens to be electric then Tesla will have competition. Until then all the supposed Tesla competitors will be a joke. BMW electric Mini is due to go on the market in spring 2020 - they’re manufacturing them now in Oxford. I guess that counts as a 'real electric car'. Whether it’s a great one remains to be seen.…

The EPA range of the electric mini is 114 miles, the Model 3LR is 310 miles. Make sure you use the same measurement standard when comparing vehicles: the WLTP standard massively overstates range.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#148

Post by BrentOzar » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

skellington wrote: post #142

mothsonasloth wrote: post #128

Ex Jaguar employee here: The I-Pace is a great car however they can't produce enough of them for demand (the waiting list was around 8 months when I left and was growing). The tooling in most of the factories is still configured for ICE and they are now repurposing some of the car factories in the midlands to be dedicated to electric vehicles. EVs are still luxury market focussed, even with my salary I couldn't affor…

Uh no, there is at least a six month supply of i-paces at US dealers now because nobody is buying them. The i-pace is actually quite nice, but terrible efficiency and no charger network makes it a tough sell.

> they can't produce enough of them for demand (the waiting list was around 8 months when I left and was growing)

> there is at least a six month supply of i-paces at US dealers now

Both of those could have been true at different times: dealers ordered large allocations of them thinking they'd dent Tesla's market, then the ex-Jaguar employee left, and as the i-Paces arrived, they simply didn't sell. That sounds logical with my own experiences with those - the early reviews sounded like Jag had really nailed it, but when I saw my first i-Pace in person, man, no way was I gonna buy one. It's just flat out not attractive, which is a shocker for Jag.

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#149

Post by cpursley » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

King-Aaron wrote: post #77

gexla wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if "looks cool" is the same thing as status (probably not) but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road. Maybe the only competitor for worst on the list of cool factor is the mini van. Much of the US is a truck culture. You can drive more places and carry more cargo than anything else. In this case, status becomes proudly declaring yourself as blue collar as opposed…

> but station wagons in the US have a history of being the ugliest thing on the road This applies to practically every American designed car before ~2010

This is unfair.

The US had a long history of very nice looking cars up until the 1980s through 2010s...

Re: Jaguar and Audi SUVs Fail to Dent Tesla’s Electric-Car Dominance

#150

Post by llampx » Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:09 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #109

gibolt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nissan Leaf has been on the market with a low price much longer. Sales have slumped since the Model 3 scaled up, news about their battery overheating, and their refusal to produce a vehicle with larger range. It is not a Tesla killer, but was for many a stop-gap solution while waiting for the 3, and Tesla will soon eclipse them in sales. That gap is unlikely to narrow

> Leaf has been on the market with a low price much longer. So Nissan beat Tesla with a model not only in time to market but also with it's superior price, which resulted so far in selling twice as many cars as Tesla's direct competitors to the Nissan Leaf. > It is not a Tesla killer Nothing will ever be if the goalpost is kept moving like that.

Tesla is moving the goalposts by producing more and more electric vehicles that people want to buy.

The Nissan Leaf and Leaf Plus doesn't come into consideration for me because of its pitiful range, the ChADeMO connector and lack of active cooling for the battery pack.