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California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

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Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many exactly? Do you have concrete data? My understanding is that the vast majority of the homeless in NYC do sleep in shelters because... well, NYC has plenty of shelters.

That's also what a comment above notes, quoting an SFBay article[0]: 67% of Bay Area homeless are unsheltered, 5% in NYC. So there might be a small number of homeless folks who can't / won't live in shelters, but that's what it is: a small minority. [0] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-homeless-uns...

Hundreds of shelter beds go empty every night in LA because many of the homeless would rather stay high/drunk than be sooner for a night. They used to be a small portion of the population but now comprise the bulk of LAs skid row population.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#92
post #56

This is very much a problem but it is incorrectly stated as California's problem. This America’s problem. It just so happens that because California is relatively rich, tends to have some of the most tolerable year round weather and the people are relatively compassionate a large percentage of the homeless of all of America are moving to California. How many times have you heard some politician or just an ordinary pe…

> How many times have you heard some politician or just an ordinary person from the south or the midwest say something to the effect “we have a great homelessness policy, we buy each homeless person a bus ticket to California and send them on their way!” They usually say this with pride or with a laugh instead of being embarrassed as they should be. In fact if i remember correctly this was part of the plot of a south park episode (although i do not exactly remember whether south park endorsed or mocked that policy).

Zero times? This seems like a lazy characterization and citing South Park doesn't really help your case. According to this Guardian article on homeless busing in the US[1], these sorts of programs tend to originate in the Western states:

> A count earlier this year found half a million homeless people on one night in America. The problem is most severe in the west, where rates of homelessness are skyrocketing in a number of major cities, and where states like California, Nevada, Oregon and Washington have some of the highest rates of per capita homelessness.

> These are also the states where homeless relocation programs are concentrated. Using public record laws, the Guardian obtained data from 16 cities and counties that give homeless people free bus tickets to live elsewhere.

Key West and Ft Lauderdale are discussed in the article; Atlanta is mentioned as having been criticized for this in the run-up to the 1996 Olympics. That said, jumping immediately to "we all know how those darn Southerners and Midwesterners are" doesn't seem to jive with the facts.

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#93
post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

NYC is getting worse. We have something like 60,000 beds available, but those are filled beyond capacity every night. The actual homeless population is certain to be higher than reported. We're starting to see semi-permanent encampments, human feces on the sidewalks and used needles in the gutters. (haven't seen discarded needles since the mid 90s). Storefronts are vacant all over. Anywhere there's a sidewalk shed --…

New York City is required by law to provide a bed for every person who requests one. When the city runs out of space in standard shelters, they literally rent out hotels [0].

It's kind of nuts, but it makes me very proud of my city. (And, for better or worse, much less sympathetic for the people who still choose to sleep on the sidewalk or in subways.)

---

[0] https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... (This is a transcript of an NPR podcast. I recommend listening to the audio if you have the ability, it's worth your time...)

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#94
post #34
post #15

> The triple scourges of drug abuse, mental illness and family breakdown have produced anomie and derangements far deeper than those seen in the 1930s Completely unsourced nonsense. As if there were no homeless families or mental illness in the great depression. Even drug abuse isn't a modern thing, though the chemicals have changed. I mean it doesn't even pass the basic (heh) smell test of "would you rather walk the…

It's the classic apocalyptic mindset, of which we seem to have plenty of in 2019: "things are worse than ever " even though that's not borne out by the evidence[1] [1] https://singularityhub.com/2016/06/27/why-the-world-is-bette...

Because the evidence is cherry-picked.

Humans may be doing better (for now), but it all came at a great cost to the environment.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#95
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using != abusing. Camping in a public space means taking part of it for yourself, permanently. In other words, you're taking away the right of the rest of citizens of using that part of public space. Defecating is a public health issue, too.

Exactly. People defecate in the woods all the time, but they have the decency to at least dig a hole and cover it. Just because it's natural to take a shit doesn't mean we should be stepping in it.

Even shitting in the woods isn't great, it's just that most people won't use the better but grosser alternative (shitting in a sealable bag).

In parks where restrooms are provided, like the Grand Canyon, shitting outside of restrooms isn't allowed. Anywhere the foot traffic gets high enough, the park service will put in restrooms and require people to use them to defecate, because the alternative is pretty bad. Even in the wilderness.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not quite that simple. The West Coast has seen a huge influx of homeless people (ex. [1] - 12% YoY increase in LA) while the nation overall has seen a drop [2]. If your homeless population is steady or falling it's easier to build enough services for them than if thousands more arrive every year. Also, I agree that more shelters and services need to be built, but it would be nice if the Federal government pitche…

California's also exporting their homeless problems. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...

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Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#97

> Under that understanding, no one had a right to camp out indefinitely on public property, much less to defecate on it. Public property belonged to the public—to everyone—and couldn’t be privatized for the benefit of one or more vagrants, however poor or sick. Though that principle would need to be applied to modern circumstances, it is the indispensable starting point for thinking about the shocking problems of the…

Replace homeless humans with sheep and cows, and you’ve literally described the basis for the phrase “tragedy of the commons”.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#98
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a caricature. In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless, and many homeless folks not only can hold jobs, but work them already. Yet they're on the streets anyway because of financial pressure, look like the "these people" you want to lock up, and would probably get picked up under the same ordinance.

"In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless" Near infinite in the sense that there are near infinite ways of dying. You could be hit by an asteroid. You could fall off a cliff. But that obscures the fact that most people die from some sickness or disease. I've done volunteer work with the homeless. There are 2 major causes of homelessness: mental illness and drug addiction. Everything els…

About 20% of the population has a mental illness issue. Almost 10% of the population have an addiction. Obviously the vast majority of these people aren't homeless.

Being homeless is a good way to turn a minor mental illness or addiction into a major one.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#99
post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

[deleted]

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless" Near infinite in the sense that there are near infinite ways of dying. You could be hit by an asteroid. You could fall off a cliff. But that obscures the fact that most people die from some sickness or disease. I've done volunteer work with the homeless. There are 2 major causes of homelessness: mental illness and drug addiction. Everything els…

It sounds like you've only done volunteer work with specific types of people. The homeless people who simply can't afford housing and thus live in vehicles, and have jobs, want to stay under the radar. It's unlikely you'd make contact with them during volunteering unless you specifically sought them out. You're not going to find them at soup kitchens, homeless shelters, skid row, etc. They're normal people like you a…

The group that stays under the radar... is likely not the same set that shits on the street?

I kid you not, there are some seriously crazy people in SOMA who have a schedule. Morning, mission and 5th. Evening, mission and 6th.

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