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California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

wsj.com

41–50 of 170 posts

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#41
post #2

> Without wishing to return to the Elizabethan Poor Laws, we ought to consider what was lost when the courts discouraged Americans from thinking of “homelessness” in light of the old laws against vagrancy. Ah, so we're back to imprisoning the homeless (at huge expense) rather than providing, say, public toilets or shelter facilities. Not only is the WSJ not learning from history, they don't want to learn from history…

>Ah, so we're back to imprisoning the homeless (at huge expense) rather than providing, say, public toilets or shelter facilities. It's weird to frame it as a "rather" when in fact you need both. You need to have public bathrooms and come down hard on shitting on the street.

That framing is likely based on the assumption that people would rather use a toilet than defecate on the streets, so if there are adequate facilities for them to do so, no further action is needed to encourage that behavior.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#44

Could it be dogs or could it be people? What economic factors could lead people to stop picking up dog poop? Have poop bags gone so far up in price that it's impossible for the average person to purchase poop bags?

It's people.

Yes, for the most part dog owners are pretty conscientious. My neighborhood is full of dog-walkers but I rarely see feces, even in the park next to my house. The only doggy-poo beef in my neighborhood, based on NextDoor threads, is some of them put the dog feces in people's personal trash cans right after the trash has been picked up, which can be kind of annoying if you keep your trash bin inside your house (I always take it to the public trash bin when I see it). But even that is a minority of dog owners, after that thread I haven't seen that happen even once (it used to happen regularly).

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#45
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a caricature. In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless, and many homeless folks not only can hold jobs, but work them already. Yet they're on the streets anyway because of financial pressure, look like the "these people" you want to lock up, and would probably get picked up under the same ordinance.

Shitting on the street and being homeless are two issues here.

The proposal in the linked opinion piece is literally to lock up all homeless because some of them shit on the street.

You can't treat them as two issues while insisting on a remedy that doesn't.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#46

> Under that understanding, no one had a right to camp out indefinitely on public property, much less to defecate on it. Public property belonged to the public—to everyone—and couldn’t be privatized for the benefit of one or more vagrants, however poor or sick. Though that principle would need to be applied to modern circumstances, it is the indispensable starting point for thinking about the shocking problems of the…

Using != abusing. Camping in a public space means taking part of it for yourself, permanently. In other words, you're taking away the right of the rest of citizens of using that part of public space.

Defecating is a public health issue, too.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#47
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental healthcare may be relevant to this issue. But the cost of housing is not. These people cannot hold jobs because they are mentally ill. They need state provided institutional care, otherwise they will remain on the streets.

That's a caricature. In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless, and many homeless folks not only can hold jobs, but work them already. Yet they're on the streets anyway because of financial pressure, look like the "these people" you want to lock up, and would probably get picked up under the same ordinance.

"In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless"

Near infinite in the sense that there are near infinite ways of dying. You could be hit by an asteroid. You could fall off a cliff. But that obscures the fact that most people die from some sickness or disease.

I've done volunteer work with the homeless. There are 2 major causes of homelessness: mental illness and drug addiction. Everything else is insignificant in comparison.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#48

> Under that understanding, no one had a right to camp out indefinitely on public property, much less to defecate on it. Public property belonged to the public—to everyone—and couldn’t be privatized for the benefit of one or more vagrants, however poor or sick. Though that principle would need to be applied to modern circumstances, it is the indispensable starting point for thinking about the shocking problems of the…

Where do you draw the line? Sitting or sleeping on a public bench all day sure, and i don't think that is what anyone is complaining about. But a tent? a city of tents? all the trash and waste meaning the park is unusable by anyone else?

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#49
post #46

> Under that understanding, no one had a right to camp out indefinitely on public property, much less to defecate on it. Public property belonged to the public—to everyone—and couldn’t be privatized for the benefit of one or more vagrants, however poor or sick. Though that principle would need to be applied to modern circumstances, it is the indispensable starting point for thinking about the shocking problems of the…

Using != abusing. Camping in a public space means taking part of it for yourself, permanently. In other words, you're taking away the right of the rest of citizens of using that part of public space. Defecating is a public health issue, too.

Exactly. People defecate in the woods all the time, but they have the decency to at least dig a hole and cover it. Just because it's natural to take a shit doesn't mean we should be stepping in it.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#50
post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

New York State has a constitutional right to shelter. Perhaps that helps.
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