California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’ • Hacker News Board

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#31

Post by jes5199 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

jtchang wrote: post #23

ravenstine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are public toilets in some of these cities. San Francisco has had self-cleaning public toilets for a long time, but probably has the worst feces problem of any first world country. On Google maps, it appears there are at least 20 public bathrooms in SF within a few miles radius. That's way more than I see when searching for the same thing in Santa Monica, another homeless mecca that doesn't have anywhere near t…

Our public bathroom facilities are pretty sparse compared to some in other countries. Taiwan for instance has fantastic public restrooms in every subway stop.

there are toilets in the BART stations, but they’ve been closed for “security reasons” for the last 18 years

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#32

Post by stOneskull » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #20

archaea_hao wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental healthcare may be relevant to this issue. But the cost of housing is not. These people cannot hold jobs because they are mentally ill. They need state provided institutional care, otherwise they will remain on the streets.

That's a caricature. In fact there are a near infinite variety of reasons for being homeless, and many homeless folks not only can hold jobs, but work them already. Yet they're on the streets anyway because of financial pressure, look like the "these people" you want to lock up, and would probably get picked up under the same ordinance.

Shitting on the street and being homeless are two issues here.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#33

Post by weeksie » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

bongobongo wrote: post #22

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

I think this is accurate, having lived all over CA and the Northeast. Northeastern cities build shelters because otherwise homeless people would freeze to death in the winter, though. Sometimes the shelters are only available during the freezing months.

We didn't used to build shelters. There was an entire riot in the 80s when the cops removed a homeless encampment that had entirely taken over Tomkins Sq Park in the East Village.

I don't know when we started building them (I'm a transplant, circa 2008) but I know there was a qualitative difference from when I'd been to the city in the early 00s versus when I moved so I assume Bloomberg was responsible for building more.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#34

Post by jquery » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #15

> The triple scourges of drug abuse, mental illness and family breakdown have produced anomie and derangements far deeper than those seen in the 1930s Completely unsourced nonsense. As if there were no homeless families or mental illness in the great depression. Even drug abuse isn't a modern thing, though the chemicals have changed. I mean it doesn't even pass the basic (heh) smell test of "would you rather walk the…

It's the classic apocalyptic mindset, of which we seem to have plenty of in 2019: "things are worse than ever" even though that's not borne out by the evidence[1]

[1]https://singularityhub.com/2016/06/27/why-the-world-is-bette...

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#35

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

babuskov wrote: post #17

Consultant32452 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr. Drew was on Scott Adam's podcast recently talking about this. Apparently even free housing is insufficient because most of the people relevant to this discussion will not accept even free housing. Nor will they accept mental healthcare even when provided for free. The only way to get them into the mental healthcare situations is to compel them by force, and that is not something people are interested in. Correcti…

> Dr. Drew was on Rogan recently talking about this. I'm trying to find that episode on YouTube, but no luck. Google searches show that they don't like each other much. Got a link?

Sorry, I had the wrong podcast. A youtube search for Dr Drew plague has several interviews with him, but I was thinking about his appearance on Scott Adam's podcast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72x2LfvSfE4

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#36

Post by weeksie » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #29

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

> we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have Maybe not as bad west coast cities, but since January 1, 2014 things have gotten significantly, noticeably worse. In subway stations and cars, in the streets, in the parks, in Penn Station -- all over. And as you point out we have enough shelter beds for everyone. NYC 2019 is not what good looks like.

God, I miss Bloomberg.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#37

Post by masklinn » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #11

empath75 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need better mental health care, and cheaper housing.

by doing that too much you drag down a city to rat's hole, more homeless coming, working people move out, economy slows down, less money left to help those in need, similar to what socialism does: great on paper, horrible in practice. should we not care for those homeless? NO, should we always put them first? NO. it's a balance of arts, going in any direction a little too far will break it.

> should we not care for those homeless? NO, should we always put them first? NO. it's a balance of arts, going in any direction a little too far will break it.

Bay Area is currently doing very little except complain about homeless folks.

NYC has more homelessness per capita, but they've both built shelters and had a strong policy of sheltering homeless folks. As a result, ~95% of NYC homeless people (>63000 people) sleep in shelters, versus ~33% in Bay Area and ~25% in LA. And it's no surprise given Bay Area has lost shelter beds in the last decade. Which is compounded by the overall lack of housing.

The west coast is singularly bad at it: Chicago is at 74% sheltering, Denver is at 84, DC is at 95.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#38

Post by akiselev » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

> Under that understanding, no one had a right to camp out indefinitely on public property, much less to defecate on it. Public property belonged to the public—to everyone—and couldn’t be privatized for the benefit of one or more vagrants, however poor or sick. Though that principle would need to be applied to modern circumstances, it is the indispensable starting point for thinking about the shocking problems of the Golden State.

Anyone else find this to be a rather entirely perverse way of thinking about public spaces? Public space is meant to be used by the public and a homeless person has just as much right to use it as anyone else, for as long as they want to. I might be annoyed that they have taken over my favorite park bench but thats part and parcel for living in a society and I don't have a right (morally, if not legally) to use ordinances to stop them

Obviously, it's a whole different issue if we're talking about public health but the solution is to build more public bathrooms and shelters, not criminalize existence.

And to nitpick: considering how much of the west coast is wilderness owned by the Federal government and managed by BLM, you sure as hell do have a right to defecate on public property. It's literally in our nature.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#39

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

krustyburger wrote: post #28

Consultant32452 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr. Drew was on Scott Adam's podcast recently talking about this. Apparently even free housing is insufficient because most of the people relevant to this discussion will not accept even free housing. Nor will they accept mental healthcare even when provided for free. The only way to get them into the mental healthcare situations is to compel them by force, and that is not something people are interested in. Correcti…

People aren’t interested in compelling the allegedly mentally ill by force, unless they pose a threat to themselves or others, because it is unconstitutional and contrary to the values of a free society. A given citizen disregarding the norms of society does not give society permission to use force against that citizen, or to subject them to forced medical treatments. Again, if the person poses an active threat that…

This is a tragedy of the commons problem. A few people living or even defecating on the streets isn't a serious public health problem. But there is a legitimate and reasonable concern that the situation in California right now is going to result in the return of the plague.

Re: California’s Biggest Cities Confront a ‘Defecation Crisis’

#40

Post by api » Sun, Aug 18, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

weeksie wrote: post #14

Build. More. Homeless. Shelters. California is so damned NIMBY'd up that they refuse to build shelters and act surprised when homeless people sleep outside. Then they throw their hands up in the air like "uh, it must be the weather" It's stupid. In New York we have more homeless per capita and in absolute numbers but we have nothing like the street issues that west coast cities have. It's because we actually house th…

Build more period. I will rejoice the day the state just revokes planning from local communities. I hate to say that because it feels horrible, but local communities in California run zoning in the most incompetent and self serving way.