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Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

bloomberg.com

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Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#151

Post by killjoywashere »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #80
caminante wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't collaboration or information-sharing. The researchers didn't disclose affiliations and violated non-disclosures. Those are pure ethics violations (and conflicts of interest) that undermine research integrity. If they're willing to lie there, what else are they willing to lie about? Quote from another article: > The reports say that the researchers failed to disclose international collaborators and tha…

Wait, they were fired for showing a grant application to a collaborator? This is something that happens all the time in academia - it's completely normal, regardless of what the rules state (assuming it's their own proposal, which is unclear from the article - as are all these vague accusations). Emory recently fired two tenured Chinese scientists, who are actually quite important in researching Huntington's disease,…

I can definitely imagine some grant applications with sensitive information in them.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#152

Post by hyperbovine »

analog31 wrote: post #25

I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened. Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained communication with their compatriots in China. I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them with goodwill is good foreign policy.

I agree with you in principle... anything that potentially averts a WWIII, I’m willing to try. In practice though I see almost no integration between US and Chinese students (at the undergrad level anyways) on campuses. At most institutions there is a huge community of Chinese students, enough that there does not seem to be a need to go beyond it in order to have a social life. A lot of the students I interact with, even after 3-4 years living in the US, still speak almost no English, for example. I confess to being at a loss, at times, as to what the point of hosting so many undergrads from China really is. (Other than making a lot of money for the university.)

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#153

Post by Tsubasachan »

analog31 wrote: post #25

I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened. Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained communication with their compatriots in China. I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them with goodwill is good foreign policy.

University isn't just a place for learning its a place for networking. Having international students is not just good its economic necessity.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#154

Post by saberience »

beebmam wrote: post #90
jaggednad wrote: post #65

From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China’s best minds. Now we’re telling them they can’t come and shipping them back? I don’t think we should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with China, sending brilliant minds back to…

Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim. There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.

So, this is anecdotal... but I worked for 5.5 years at a top American tech company, don't want to name names here. But about 50% of our data scientists were Chinese grad students taken after they finished their Masters or PhDs.

You can say what you like about "best minds" but I can assure you there are some seriously talented Chinese youth coming to the US for grad school and then ending up at top American companies and working jobs where high intelligence and ability is required. I was friends with many of said graduate students and many of them expressed fear and sadness about the Trump Visa situation and none of them wanted to go back to China.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#155

Post by nneonneo »

briandear wrote: post #82
nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Was American science declining in the 1960s when almost no Chinese students were in American universities? Could there also be extremely smart people in Africa that might now find a place in American universities? Are there Americans that might now find a place in American Universities? I am not saying anything about visa policies, but suggesting that limiting Chinese students will hurt American science is a pretty n…

> there is no doubt that such approvals require allegiance to the CCP and and some willingness to help the CCP when asked.

No, they really don’t. Where’s your source for this? You make it sound like we’re just admitting 350,000 spies into the States each year.

However, it is true that if you make these folks feel thoroughly unwelcome, they will want to just go home and help out - and that’s exactly what you’ll do by (a) being baselessly suspicious of them and (b) being harsh when they try to stay for studies or immigrate.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#156

Post by makomk »

pkaye wrote: post #63
hello_1234 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will only be available to everyone after it's patented and sold to a big pharma. All made possible by the great Bayh–Dole Act - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayh%E2%80%93Dole_Act

How does it work in the EU? Do they just give away without any patents?

Publicly-funded medical research at EU universities works exactly the same way - they patent it and sell the patents to big pharma.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#157

Post by Juliate »

henrikschroder wrote: post #49
ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

The US has a massive advantage in science (and business) in that many of the best and brightest from across the world want to come to the US, despite the hurdles and issues of getting student visas or work visas. This means that as a country you don't have to pay for the primary and secondary schooling of all these people, but you get to reap the rewards of them working in your country and contributing to your scient…

> The US has a massive advantage [...] in that many of the best and brightest from across the world want to come to the US

And it's really, really actively fighting against it: electing Trump (and the consequences with it) is not the least they did in that perspective.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#158

Post by lambdasquirrel »

briandear wrote: post #82
nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Was American science declining in the 1960s when almost no Chinese students were in American universities? Could there also be extremely smart people in Africa that might now find a place in American universities? Are there Americans that might now find a place in American Universities? I am not saying anything about visa policies, but suggesting that limiting Chinese students will hurt American science is a pretty n…

American science was doing “well” in the 60’s because Europe was still recovering.

Today, the US “competes” (to some extent) with Europe for the best and brightest.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#159

Post by inflatableDodo »

Tsubasachan wrote: post #142
nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Its fascinating how America is slowly turning into a country that simply doesn't want foreigners. Sadly I like New York so I have to diligently go through the mountain of paperwork. How many people from the EU overstay or cause problems for the police?!

Brits overstay and work in the US without the correct paperwork all the time. They don't seem to get noticed by the police for some reason.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#160

Post by tjeannin »

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

"Europe is home to 1.64 million researchers, while the US number approaches 1.47 million. ... Europe produced 33.4% of the world's research outputs, while the US accounted for 23.4%."

The US is not really leading the way. It's a bit strange to "consider" Europe as a potential good place for research, it's already way ahead the US.

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