Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#81

Post by threezero » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #35

zaroth wrote: post #12

In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1] It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work. If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens. If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot fo…

I find this line of thinking so odd, because nobody ever says “exporting American {cars/corn/computers} to China drives up demand and costs to US citizens.” The worst-case scenario here is that education is economically just equivalent to an export, but that’s still a pretty great scenario! Especially since it’s an export that doesn’t pollute, supports high-paying labor, perpetuates the global premium associated with…

Well, except there’s a finite amount of educational slots, and so fewer people who would keep that education and knowledge in the US are able to get in.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#82

Post by briandear » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:09 AM UTC

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Was American science declining in the 1960s when almost no Chinese students were in American universities? Could there also be extremely smart people in Africa that might now find a place in American universities? Are there Americans that might now find a place in American Universities? I am not saying anything about visa policies, but suggesting that limiting Chinese students will hurt American science is a pretty narrow view. There is also a counter argument that many bright Chinese students go back to China, thus strengthening China. There is also another view that some Chinese students are working for or carrying the water for Beijing’s government. Students in China can’t just decide to go to the US, they have to be approved by the Chinese government and there is no doubt that such approvals require allegiance to the CCP and and some willingness to help the CCP when asked. Attributing nothing but good intentions for the 350,000 Chinese students admitted to the US each year is naïve.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/chines...

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#83

Post by AFascistWorld » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:11 AM UTC

warmcat wrote: post #8

"In April, three researchers were also let go by the University of Texas’s M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in connection with an investigation into possible foreign attempts to take advantage of its federally funded research." This is the real reason why visas are getting denied. Why would you want to enjoy the fruits of living and working in America but benefit other countries (even if you once belonged there)?

They are listed as paid full-time researchers in Chinese institutions. But xenophobia!

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#84

Post by bayesian_horse » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:14 AM UTC

jtanderson wrote: post #78

Salgat wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right. China is desperately fighting brain drain and here we are giving them a helping hand.

Almost makes me wonder if it's deliberate, as in some quid pro quo agreed upon, implied, or otherwise, between the US and Chinese presidents. Though what the US gets out of it is unclear, I wouldn't be shocked.

[flagged]

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#85

Post by briandear » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:17 AM UTC

TehCorwiz wrote: post #46

jtr_47 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is plenty of evidence if you spend a few minutes looking. Here’s one: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/chines...

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#86

Post by nneonneo » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:19 AM UTC

the_svd_doctor wrote: post #72

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Your first point is incorrect. First a student asks for an F-1 (sometimes J-1) visa. This can be delivered for a single entry (typical for Iranian students for instance), or for 1 or like 5 years (the common case for international students). The visa lets you _enter_ the country. Once admitted in the US, a student can remain indefinitely while maintaining its student status (including school transfers). This applies…

This also bars people from leaving the country to attend conferences (an essential part of many grad students’ training), visit family or just travel - all things that many students need to do regularly. Having an expired visa is very much not a situation you want to be in.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#87

Post by occamschainsaw » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:21 AM UTC

ETHisso2017 wrote: post #76

the_svd_doctor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point is incorrect. First a student asks for an F-1 (sometimes J-1) visa. This can be delivered for a single entry (typical for Iranian students for instance), or for 1 or like 5 years (the common case for international students). The visa lets you _enter_ the country. Once admitted in the US, a student can remain indefinitely while maintaining its student status (including school transfers). This applies…

So once a student has been on a F-1 visa for more than a year, they face a risk of being barred from re-entering the US if they choose to visit their families?

No, iirc F1 visas are usually granted for length of program plus one year (5 for a BS etc). As long as the person maintains student status with the university, traveling to and fro is permitted.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#88

Post by flukus » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

youeeeeeediot wrote: post #10

Elite universities have been more than complicit in this as well, especially when they can charge such a premium on "international student" tuition. It is also why they so often look the other way when those students bring their cultural values on things like cheating with them. No one dares admit it for fear of being labeled racist or xenophobic.

Can't speak for the US but this is certainly the case in Australian Universities, I've had interns that don't speak enough English to order a hamburger yet somehow got masters degrees. Cheating is rampant and the Universities will look the other way, even threaten teachers that fail students. The industry has the legitimacy of a pyramid scheme and deserves to be shut down.

While they're here many students will also work more than the allowed 25 hours a week (meant for industry experience not ubereats) and for below minimum wage, which has a huge affect on the job market for younger people.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#89

Post by bayesian_horse » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:23 AM UTC

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government.

For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different that it is automatically harder for them. It doesn't help that they are told by the educational system and state media how great China is and how bad the US.

Also the students going abroad are highly selected. Not only for academic qualities, but students (or their families) who show a lack of loyalty to the state will have a tougher time even obtaining an exit visa. I wouldn't be surprised if cooperation with intelligence services in terms of spying on American universities isn't part of the deal, too.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#90

Post by beebmam » Tue, Jun 04, 2019, 5:31 AM UTC

jaggednad wrote: post #65

From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China’s best minds. Now we’re telling them they can’t come and shipping them back? I don’t think we should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with China, sending brilliant minds back to…

Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim.

There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.