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Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

bloomberg.com

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Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#141

Post by asdf21 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #91
beebmam wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim. There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.

>Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? As we've seen with the recent scandals (and we also knew before), the wealthiest American attendees are hardly America's best minds either. Don't think this is a problem that only applies to foreign students. If you want to remove wealth advantages for top tier universities I'm all for it, but it's a bad club to…

Don't presume a few exceptions in America meritocracy (who drastically overpaid and had to jump through tons of hoops to cheat the system) compare to what is the norm internationally.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#142

Post by Tsubasachan »

nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Its fascinating how America is slowly turning into a country that simply doesn't want foreigners. Sadly I like New York so I have to diligently go through the mountain of paperwork. How many people from the EU overstay or cause problems for the police?!

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#143

Post by bitreality »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
derp_dee_derp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America's technological supremacy and economic growth? Ha ha good try but no. Besides, India isn't affected by this and they make up equal share of foreign students in American Universities. Plus, you know, western European students, African students, Russian, etc, have also contributed over the decades. China isn't everything.

> Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America's technological supremacy and economic growth? No, but more is more. The carrot is the cream of a billion people tasting American culture and having the opportunity to contribute to it. I’m just trying to see the counterbalancing, and un-mitigatable, cost or risk.

Elite Chinese talent is more likely to return to China, and therefore it becomes counter-productive. Plus, the US is in direct competition with China, which isn't the case with most other countries. So, to simply say "more is more" in this circumstance is false.

It's hardly a tragedy that rich kids in China can't attend Ivy League schools in the US.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#144

Post by C1sc0cat »

henrikschroder wrote: post #49
ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

The US has a massive advantage in science (and business) in that many of the best and brightest from across the world want to come to the US, despite the hurdles and issues of getting student visas or work visas. This means that as a country you don't have to pay for the primary and secondary schooling of all these people, but you get to reap the rewards of them working in your country and contributing to your scient…

If its like the UK International students are a source of income as they pay more and subsidise the locals.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#145

Post by C1sc0cat »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #127
protastus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current visa rules make it very easy to stay. STEM graduate students on an F-1 visa get a whopping 36 months of employment authorization in the US. Look up OPT extension. That's 3 years they can apply to get a H-1B. In fact, getting a M.S. from a mediocre U.S. school is a popular method young people use to immigrate.

H1-B provides for a terrible quality of life, and is only attractive if options in home country are worse.

It is in many cases ask any Indian on a h1b about the Dickensian employment laws in India reliving letters etc.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#146

Post by killjoywashere »

tomohawk wrote: post #139
analog31 wrote: post #25

I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened. Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained communication with their compatriots in China. I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them with goodwill is good foreign policy.

It's a wonderful theory, but here are some counterexamples off the top of my head: Yamamoto: studied extensively in the US but led the charge to attack the US in WWII. Thought we'd be a pushover. Matsuoko: contemporary of Yamamoto who became Foreign Secretary and similarly though attacking the US was a good idea Qutb: his time in the US convinced him that the US was evil - he created the philosophical basis for moder…

I don't know about the rest, but with regard to Yamamoto, let's quote the man: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/isoroku_yamamoto_224335

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#147

Post by bitreality »

msie wrote: post #116
zaroth wrote: post #12

In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1] It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work. If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it’s probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens. If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot fo…

Who could blame them? The US is an inhospitable place for immigrants. People won't give them a chance to assimilate. They'll be suspicious of them from the start (like some of the comments here), they give them a hard-time if they don't assimilate right away and won't go half-way to be friends with them.

Compared to where? China? India? I think immigrants assimilate just fine into the United States. Assimilation is not easy anywhere. The United States isn't perfect, but plenty of immigrants are living great lives.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#148

Post by fiblye »

kuzehanka wrote: post #133
fiblye wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to interact freely? I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that they felt comfortable…

It's not about societies being different. It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes, completely refusing to integrate, engaging in pro-chinese anti-local political activism, and basically expanding the CCPs political reach into foreign universities. This is something that all tertiary educators are painful aware of, as is the reluctance of faculty to…

>unique to Chinese and not other international students.

It’s really not. All wealthy international students are getting passed with As and pats on the back for cheating and doing no real work. It just seems worse with Chinese because they currently make up most of the foreign student base.

And political activism and silencing others on behalf of the CCP is an issue, but I’ve seen disproportionately way more student groups and public complaints in favor of a certain middle eastern country.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#149

Post by nneonneo »

rgbrenner wrote: post #45
nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Already, science budgets are continually slashed and grants are harder to find. The first point is false. R&D spending is at a record high: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44307.pdf Government's share of funding has fallen below 50%, but only because business r&d spending has increased so much. Federal R&D budgets are increasing: https://cen.acs.org/policy/research-funding/US-science-fundi... If the 2nd part is true, i…

US R&D spending as a whole is up, but a lion's share of that (per your first link) is "development" ($314.5bn of $495.1bn). Academic environments, which are the ones affected by student visa policies and such, primarily engage in basic and applied research (not development), and are largely funded by the national government. Industry grants exist and can be real boons for researchers, but often come with strings attached and are often disproportionately targeted towards certain sectors.

National funding for academic research, unfortunately, has been flat (or falling) over the last several years, and has repeatedly been targeted for cuts by the President (luckily reined in by Congress). For example, see the NSF's funding survey: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2018/nsb20181/assets/968/figu...

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#150

Post by raverbashing »

nneonneo wrote: post #86
the_svd_doctor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point is incorrect. First a student asks for an F-1 (sometimes J-1) visa. This can be delivered for a single entry (typical for Iranian students for instance), or for 1 or like 5 years (the common case for international students). The visa lets you _enter_ the country. Once admitted in the US, a student can remain indefinitely while maintaining its student status (including school transfers). This applies…

This also bars people from leaving the country to attend conferences (an essential part of many grad students’ training), visit family or just travel - all things that many students need to do regularly. Having an expired visa is very much not a situation you want to be in.

I wonder if the "one entry doesn't count if you're going to Canada" wildcard works for those kind of visas
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