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Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

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Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#131

Post by fiblye »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to interact freely?

I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that they felt comfortable in, made new friends, and started families.

Even if a bunch go home and forget about their time in America, plenty are having life-changing and potentially society-changing experiences.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#132

Post by stale2002 »

warmcat wrote: post #28
macintux wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must admit to some confusion about why federally-funded cancer research results aren’t available to everyone.

Imagine getting funding in USA for research and sending the research and results back to China so they can patent it before. Who benefits then?

Everyone benefits, because information is now more freely flowing.

I don't care at all about information "theft".

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#133

Post by kuzehanka »

fiblye wrote: post #131
bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to interact freely? I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that they felt comfortable…

It's not about societies being different. It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes, completely refusing to integrate, engaging in pro-chinese anti-local political activism, and basically expanding the CCPs political reach into foreign universities. This is something that all tertiary educators are painful aware of, as is the reluctance of faculty to take disciplinary action against international students because they're a major source of revenue. This is also something that is quite unique to Chinese and not other international students.

The Chinese students who don't subscribe to the CCP agenda are pressured by the others. They get labelled traitors, ostracised, word gets around and their families get harassed back at home.

In a nutshell, the CCP has identified inclusive societies as a soft target for remote propaganda achieved via international students. The CCP is highly selective in deciding who gets to leave the country to study abroad. This is something that couldn't even be discussed until recently because such discussions were/still are labeled as racism.

Stuff like this: http://www.tibetanjournal.com/tibetan-girl-wins-university-e...

If AU/US international students tried to do anything like this in China, they'd be deported in the following few days but not before getting death threats and having their entire family doxxed and harassed.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#134

Post by simion314 »

toomanyrichies wrote: post #93
ajmurmann wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. However, does it matter? If we take some of the best and brightest from China and make them even better, why would it matter if they'd otherwise be still some of China's best and brightest but less well trained? Regardless the US wins and China loses very talented people.

> does it matter? It matters if they return to China with their American education and: -engage in nation-state attacks on behalf of the PLA [1], or -build facial-recognition software to further repress the Uyghur community [2], or -contribute to the "social credit" system which makes it next-to-impossible for everyday Chinese to express anything other than unvarnished support of the ruling party [3], or -eavesdrop o…

Or if the US values are really better the students would bring their home, I am not sure how this phenomena is called but about 300 years ago when wealthy students from Romania went to study in France and return caused a big cultural improvement.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#135

Post by PeterStuer »

rgbrenner wrote: post #45
nneonneo wrote: post #9

Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been gettin…

Already, science budgets are continually slashed and grants are harder to find. The first point is false. R&D spending is at a record high: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44307.pdf Government's share of funding has fallen below 50%, but only because business r&d spending has increased so much. Federal R&D budgets are increasing: https://cen.acs.org/policy/research-funding/US-science-fundi... If the 2nd part is true, i…

Have the definitions/concepts of research in its various forms kept constant in these figures? I know that at least in Europe those have drifted considerable under the influence of industry lobbying to expand more and more into the higher regions of the Technology Readiness Levels [1] model that formerly were definitely not included under the 'R&D' umbrella.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#136

Post by ordu »

henrikschroder wrote: post #49
ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

The US has a massive advantage in science (and business) in that many of the best and brightest from across the world want to come to the US, despite the hurdles and issues of getting student visas or work visas. This means that as a country you don't have to pay for the primary and secondary schooling of all these people, but you get to reap the rewards of them working in your country and contributing to your scient…

> This means that as a country you don't have to pay for the primary and secondary schooling of all these people

You don't have to pay for an order of magnitude more people: education is not a technology yet, it could give no guarantees on a results. To get one bright student you need to teach ten people through primary and secondary school.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#137

Post by [deleted] »

jaggednad wrote: post #65

From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China’s best minds. Now we’re telling them they can’t come and shipping them back? I don’t think we should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with China, sending brilliant minds back to…

[deleted]

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#138

Post by ekianjo »

ojbyrne wrote: post #92
ekianjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically it is a strange assumption to make since by all counts the US is already the country in the world with the most diverse population. It is not as if science is only the work of students or even in particular foreign students...

Citation needed, and the colloquialism is actually “by all accounts.” Here is one for you: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-an...

That depends a lot by what you call culturally diverse. This map makes you think that Africa is the most diverse continent of all, but the fact is pretty much only the US has and continues receiving people from all over the world, and not just neighboring countries.

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#139

Post by tomohawk »

analog31 wrote: post #25

I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened. Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained communication with their compatriots in China. I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them with goodwill is good foreign policy.

It's a wonderful theory, but here are some counterexamples off the top of my head:

Yamamoto: studied extensively in the US but led the charge to attack the US in WWII. Thought we'd be a pushover.

Matsuoko: contemporary of Yamamoto who became Foreign Secretary and similarly though attacking the US was a good idea

Qutb: his time in the US convinced him that the US was evil - he created the philosophical basis for modern islamic terrorism and the Muslim Brotherhood

The CCP (chinese communist party) is conducting extensive influence operations in our universities today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/chin...

Re: Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools

#140

Post by kuzehanka »

xxxpupugo wrote: post #121
bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government. For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different tha…

Never heard of such thing as exit visa...

When you try to leave China, you're checked against a no-exit list and simply prevented from leaving if you're on it. No reason need be given to you. China currently keeps a number of political hostages this way and prevents undesirable nationals from leaving the country.

Most countries try to prevent undesirables from entering, china allows them to enter and then prevents them from leaving.

https://fox8.com/2019/01/03/us-warns-citizens-traveling-to-c...

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