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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#121

Post by bmmayer1 »

mcv wrote: post #87
bmmayer1 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's this assumption that countries are like sentient beings who can 'decide' things. The reality of how a society functions, from cultural norms to laws to violence, is a unique combination of the whims and desires and priorities of the population, for better or for worse...countries don't want things, people do.

But countries do have a decision making process. It's called politics. It doesn't control every aspect of the country, and culture in particular is hard to control directly, but police is a government function, paid by taxes. If there's anything a country should be able to control, it's how their police operates.

If that's true, then there's a problem with this statement:

> In my opinion, a police that's feared rather than trusted, is a sign of a police state or totalitarian regime. If that's not what the country wants to be, then it's a problem that needs to be fixed

The assumption is that if the police is feared / overly militaristic, then by definition that country must 'want' to be a police state. Given that Americans overwhelmingly, if asked, would not want to live in a totalitarian or a police state, then either we're not really a police state, or we're not capable of controlling how our police operates. I don't think the latter is true; we obviously have political control over our police. So is it possible that maybe we're not the jackbooted thugocratic police state that we're portrayed to be?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#122

Post by Griffinsauce »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #102
mattlondon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

When the police come to your door, you're going to answer. Agree with the program or not, this is not spam.

Nope, I'm not obliged to.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#123

Post by soraminazuki »

sgift wrote: post #18
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

Maybe police in some countries are run by an overwhelming majority of very nice people who sincerely wants to help. But should that really be a reason not to have restrictions on the power of the police force? Granting more power means that it has the potential to be abused some day. How can you ensure that people in the police force will stay nice forever?

IMHO, policing based on mass surveillance goes way too far.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#124

Post by xvf22 »

jacquesm wrote: post #49
sgift wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post and the article have the same problem: Thinking the way police works/seems to work in the US (always out to get you) is universal to the world while it is the exception. Police in other countries usually works out of a desire to help.

In rural Canada, if you're black or have prior interaction with them the police might as well be US police. If you're white and in good standing the police is super friendly. RCMP is the only force in Canada that I would consider to be professional.

If you're indigenous and especially an indigenous woman then your trust and faith in police can be pretty damn low.[0]

[0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/19/canada-police-fail-indig...

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#125

Post by icebraining »

cperciva wrote: post #13
tastroder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really? The article seems relatively clear that there are some problems regarding consent in this whole apparatus. I'm torn on the article. The Canadian government isn't China and we have had quite a few pretty public cases here in Germany where lack of inter-agency coordination led to serious harm in the context of our CPS equivalent. OTOH, at least from that article, this program doesn't seem to get the ove…

Yes you can. This program is being driven by a desire to identify potential future victims of crime, not a desire to identify future criminals.

The intent behind the people setting up the program is besides the point; if the actual cops think your behavior is suspicious, are they prevented from investigating? If not, then the increased interaction caused by this program can very well lead to more situations wherein you aren't free to say no.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#126

Post by jonathanstrange »

mar77i wrote: post #78
jonathanstrange wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason not mentioned yet is that there is almost never any proper evaluation of these technologies and that in the area of crime detection this evaluation is very difficult due to lack of data. The police has limited resources and power, so they cannot solve all crimes and some go even unnoticed. So in reality, wherever the police looks more, the police finds more crimes. (This would be true even if crimes were c…

I must say I'm on the fence about such databases, because I realize how law enforcement and social services can benefit from increased cooperation and having an idea how person might behave when they're stressed out, ie. when police confronts them. In Switzerland we had several scandals in the previous century about political and social tracking that police implemented without governmental oversight, and since the la…

For the reasons I've laid out, I see no reason whatsoever why law enforcement should use or have any such technology at all. If at all, this kind of technology should be used by social workers, maybe even under some additional protection and oath of confidentiality like lawyers and doctors have. That way, I could see some real beneficial crime prevention effects. However, the idea that potential troublemakers and delinquents might freely talk to the police and therefore "get on the right path" in their life seems hilariously naive and far from reality. If you look at what police patrols have to deal with on a daily basis - a lot of it is related to alcohol abuse and mental health -, then you have to conclude that the police is mostly the wrong authority to deal with these problems. This is not just my assessment, it's actually very common for the police themselves to demand that other state authorities should do more about problems of mental health, alcohol abuse, and domestic abuse. Most of the time, the police neither has the training, nor the authority, nor the time to deal with these problems adequately, and they openly talk about this in interviews.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#127

Post by yspeak »

ilovetux wrote: post #114

I cant wrap my head around this. They say identifiable information is removed but if that's true how do they know who to intervene with? How do they re-identify people who are at risk?

This seems silly and Luddite.. Agencies have been forever keeping hard files on people they have been helping. So now they are putting it in computers and we should all now freak out. Welcome to the digital age..

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#128

Post by xvf22 »

mcv wrote: post #34
goodcanadian wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are generally free to decline to talk to the police. You definitely do not have to invite them into your home. Your rights around police interaction are very similar to those in the US.

At the same time, I would hope that Canadian police is a bit more trustworthy and trusted than US police. I certainly wouldn't want that kind of visit from police officers whose primary concern is to find a reason to arrest or shoot you, but if police is honestly trying to help and prevent problems, it's an entirely different matter. Police culture, policy and accountability matters a lot in a case like this.

Police in Canada may be better but there are still a ton of problems especially with indigenous populations.[1][2] Ontario has the SIU for police oversight but the new provincial government is meddling with it[3].

[1]https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/19/canada-police-fail-indig...

[2]https://aptnnews.ca/2019/05/13/were-you-turned-on-by-this-at...

[3]http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/808540/Constitutional+Adminis...

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#129

Post by tempguy9999 »

laumars wrote: post #118
perl4ever wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of logic that is used everywhere, whether by police or social services, but it doesn't work in practice the way it does in theory. Providing help to people before there is a crisis sounds so nice and helpful, but due to the inherent drastic negative consequences of entering into the system, it ends up merely moving the punishment for not fitting in forward of the crisis. Thus, trying to be pro-active…

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening. I'd be interested to read…

> Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into.

What are you saying, and what do you think should happen if someone is suicidal? Please think very carefully before answering.

Edit: have you any experience with desire for suicide, or any experience with anyone you know well who wanted to, or succeeded in suicide?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#130

Post by PostOnce »

diveanon wrote: post #113

So at what point would this become a net positive to society? Let's say it stops an average of 5 mass shootings a year and 200 domestic homicides, will the cost of lost privacy be worth it? I don't like the idea of systems like this, but in places like the United States where gun control and mental health treatment are off the table I don't see many other options.

What if we move the TSA into the streets and have mandatory inspections of every home every day?

We could mandate reporting on neighbors.

We, too, could become a shining example of what happens when the state is primarily concerned with the welfare of its citizens, just like North Korea.

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