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Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

vice.com

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Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#111

Post by dao- »

gambiting wrote: post #99
bgie wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - european here - and police is not our friend

I mean, I didn't give Polish police as a random example without ever being to Poland you know. I'm Polish and based on my several interactions with the police I wouldn't hesitate at all. I would definitely describe them as friends and they do generally want to help.

Are you a person of color? Do you have piercings, pink hair, stuff like that? Maybe you shouldn't generalize solely based on your personal experience?

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#112

Post by jonathanstrange »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #77
jonathanstrange wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extraordinarily bad advice. If the police knocks on your door to talk to you about your behaviour (or business, or family), then you should definitely get a lawyer as soon as possible, no matter where you live.

You may be projecting your quite reasonable concern about police in your country (the US?) onto everyone's situation. It's perhaps not wise trying to speak for everyone; let them speak for themselves. As a brit I'd be more laid back if this happened to me - and I can be very critical of our coppers!

No, I'm sure there is no projection going on, since I have never had any concerns about the police in any country I've lived in so far (all in Europe), never had to do with the police except for one case of registering the theft of my bag, and I've never been to the US. As I've said, if the police wants to talk about you or your business or family, then the generally best advice is to get a lawyer.

As for other things they want to talk about, that's fine, as long as you bear in mind the following. First, in many countries police has to investigate any suspicion of a criminal offence even if it is unrelated to the initial investigation. In many countries, police has no leeway about that even if they claim the opposite. Second, the police often investigate someone as a mere witness before formally charging the person for a crime, because that's easier to start with.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#113

Post by diveanon »

So at what point would this become a net positive to society?

Let's say it stops an average of 5 mass shootings a year and 200 domestic homicides, will the cost of lost privacy be worth it?

I don't like the idea of systems like this, but in places like the United States where gun control and mental health treatment are off the table I don't see many other options.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#115

Post by DanBC »

avar wrote: post #45
sgift wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in this scenario the police are unprompted at your door and their first ask is to come into your house. If the police just want to talk to you because they're concerned about you personally they'll just ask to talk to you in a place they wouldn't otherwise need a search warrant signed by a judge to enter. "Their first ask is to come into your house" is based on a quote Vice took out of context (and then blew up…

I'm commenting on this type of interaction with the police in general. No, police aren't all out to get you. But you'd be dumb even in Iceland not to have some basic situational awareness and consider how that interaction started out. You didn't come to them on the street, they sought you out at your home. So if the police knock on your door open up and talk to them there. If they just want to talk you you they'll be…

They're talking about your mental health and the intelligence they have -- they want to talk inside your home so your neighbours don't get to listen in.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#116

Post by king_magic »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #102
mattlondon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find weird about all of this is that people actually answer their door to unexpected & unknown visitors?! Do you also answer your phone to unexpected & unknown callers?! My rule of thumb built up over years of annoyance & bullshit is: if you don't know who it is, or aren't expecting anything, ignore it; 99.9% of the time someone unexpected/unknown on the phone or at your door are just going to be wasting your…

When the police come to your door, you're going to answer. Agree with the program or not, this is not spam.

There’s a reaaaaaally thin line between (sincere) “We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?” and (menacing, oppressive) “We’re so worried about you, can we come in and chat?”.

And there’s a really thin line between having the choice to answer your door, and being compelled to for no legitimate reason.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#117

Post by icebraining »

mcv wrote: post #35
taneq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without some pretty strong new protections in place there is absolutely no upside and likely a significant downside to letting them in. The police are not your friends.

> The police are not your friends. This is a massive problem in itself. The police should be your friend. When it's not, that in itself is a massive condemnation of the way the police functions.

Police are just humans, they have their biases and grudges and bad days like everyone else. But the power they hold means those bad behaviors can harm you quite a bit, in the same way it can help you when you need it.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#118

Post by laumars »

perl4ever wrote: post #104
laumars wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking for outrage rather than trying to understand point I'm making and in doing so you've gotten the wrong end of the proverbial stick. I'm not saying everyone should conform, I'm just saying some people need more help than others to make a life for themselves. Sometimes it's because of substance abuse, sometimes it's because of mental, physical or sexual abuse as a kid that leads them into a pattern of bad…

This is the sort of logic that is used everywhere, whether by police or social services, but it doesn't work in practice the way it does in theory. Providing help to people before there is a crisis sounds so nice and helpful, but due to the inherent drastic negative consequences of entering into the system, it ends up merely moving the punishment for not fitting in forward of the crisis. Thus, trying to be pro-active…

I understand where you're coming from and did address some of what you discussed in my first post too. I completely agree it's a short hop from helping to interfering, however where we differ is I think not having a support system at all is more negligent. I should also reiterate my earlier caveat that I don't agree in profiling people at a mass level like the article suggests is happening.

I'd be interested to read the figures you have on why support systems like these don't work in practice because all studies I've read suggest otherwise. Whether it be programmes that offer ex-convicts jobs and thus reduces their likelihood of re-offending; or support at an earlier age such as special schools for kids who are frequently expelled from the mainstream schools and how they've reduced the rates of young offenders.

The key is really to give people alternative options rather than "protecting" them by removing options.

Your suicidal point is a separate topic though. That's a mental illness rather than an action someone chooses or is lead into.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#119

Post by Griffinsauce »

diveanon wrote: post #113

So at what point would this become a net positive to society? Let's say it stops an average of 5 mass shootings a year and 200 domestic homicides, will the cost of lost privacy be worth it? I don't like the idea of systems like this, but in places like the United States where gun control and mental health treatment are off the table I don't see many other options.

Your last point is completely invalid IMO. Its doing a bad hack while not fixing the structural problems. As they say in Dutch: mopping with the tap open...

Taking good options off the table for irrational reasons does not make the next best options any better.

Re: Police in Canada Are Tracking People’s ‘Negative’ Behavior in a ‘Risk’ Database

#120

Post by mcv »

icebraining wrote: post #117
mcv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police are not your friends. This is a massive problem in itself. The police should be your friend. When it's not, that in itself is a massive condemnation of the way the police functions.

Police are just humans, they have their biases and grudges and bad days like everyone else. But the power they hold means those bad behaviors can harm you quite a bit, in the same way it can help you when you need it.

Exactly, and that's why you need to invest in training and guiding them, in holding them accountable for missteps and bad behaviour.

The point of police is not to give untrained regular people unchecked power over others.

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