Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference • Hacker News Board

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#201

Post by leereeves » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #189

ajkjk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A responder to this wrote "Sometimes fairness requires stepping in and lending a helping hand to right an imbalance.", which is definitely the answer that lots of people would give. Obviously this is an ideological stance, and it sounds like you probably disagree with it. But I think it's also pretty obvious, even before asking, that the only answer is going to be an ideological stance. It's one person or group's per…

> you know perfectly well why they are doing the things they do, what value system informs their actions. So what's the point of protesting it here like you're bewildered about it? For me, it's fascinating how people can adhere to an ideology that is so overtly inconsistent. I like to hear the ways people try to reconcile such obvious inconsistencies. And one person's "bewilderment" is another person's "giving the be…

The author's ideology perplexes me.

He focuses a lot on the allegation that the disinvitee makes women (specifically) feel unsafe, but it's clear from his story that the alleged behavior isn't gender specific.

Is what they allegedly did to him more acceptable because he's a man? Should future organizers ignore his story, even if conclusively proven true, because it's not about a woman feeling unsafe?

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#202

Post by mathgenius » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

I'm very sorry this person is having to suffer all this crap, but

> conferences tend to net to a loss.

If you put out a lot of energy, for "free", then you often get shit in return. If you don't take responsibility for what you are getting back for all your hard effort, things can easily go pear-shaped. This seems to be one of those mystical laws of the universe. I'm not saying you should be selfish, or charge big bucks for your time. There are plenty of ways for people to give something back, and you need to make sure that is happening too.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#203

Post by reitanqild » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:23 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #197

protomyth wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why a position being "well-compensated" is relevant, particularly when society is worse off for the imbalance.

It's relevant in the sense that I don't particularly care that it'd be harder for me to get these jobs, as the pay cut vs my current job of software engineer would be so significant that I would never seriously consider it. Conversely, I would care a lot if there's some job that would earn me more money that my gender hinders me in attaining (as is sometimes the case for women in tech). To the extent that society is…

> Conversely, I would care a lot if there's some job that would earn me more money that my gender hinders me in attaining (as is sometimes the case for women in tech).

It might be useful to point out since this is an internantional forum:

This is very different from northern Europe. Here if I help recruit a male engineer I get a fat check.

If I help recruit a female engineer I get an equally fat check + smiles and possibly mentions, because leaders have this as a KPI.

So for me this all seems really weird but I guess it looks a bit different in the US.

I'll also admit that I once helped a foreign woman get a job in my office (she was cleaning, but had a degree in IT and had the skills), but this is > 10 years ago and she wasn't fluent in the local language.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#204

Post by weberc2 » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #196

weberc2 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you know perfectly well why they are doing the things they do, what value system informs their actions. So what's the point of protesting it here like you're bewildered about it? For me, it's fascinating how people can adhere to an ideology that is so overtly inconsistent. I like to hear the ways people try to reconcile such obvious inconsistencies. And one person's "bewilderment" is another person's "giving the be…

But you're doing it too! You're trying to make it sound abundantly reasonable that the OP's ideology is inconsistent, when lots of people would completely disagree with that, and then you're pretending like it's obvious and not up for debate. More fanning the flames. Why?

> You're trying to make it sound abundantly reasonable that the OP's ideology is inconsistent

No, I'm asserting that it's inconsistent (based on studying these sorts of purportedly "egalitarian" racial/gender ideologies). Anyone is welcome to make a counterargument.

> lots of people would completely disagree with that

I know. And I find their justifications fascinating, as previously mentioned.

> then you're pretending like it's obvious and not up for debate.

In many ways it is obvious. "Racism isn't racism if it targets $RACE people" is one variation of a popular slogan. In any case, as mentioned several times now, my position is "yes, more debate", yours is "debate is pointless".

> More fanning the flames. Why?

I'm not "fanning flames", I'm inviting debate. And as previously mentioned, I find the debate interesting. Incidentally it also tends to publicize the inconsistencies in the ideology, which is a nice side effect.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#205

Post by reitanqild » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

AgentME wrote: post #155

reitanqild wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Account is suspended it seems.

The account still is up. They just deleted their tweet.

Seems you are right, bit the localized error message said it was suspended.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#206

Post by protomyth » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #197

protomyth wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why a position being "well-compensated" is relevant, particularly when society is worse off for the imbalance.

It's relevant in the sense that I don't particularly care that it'd be harder for me to get these jobs, as the pay cut vs my current job of software engineer would be so significant that I would never seriously consider it. Conversely, I would care a lot if there's some job that would earn me more money that my gender hinders me in attaining (as is sometimes the case for women in tech). To the extent that society is…

It's relevant in the sense that I don't particularly care that it'd be harder for me to get these jobs, as the pay cut vs my current job of software engineer would be so significant that I would never seriously consider it.

I'm glad your chosen profession is well paid and you have the ability to do it. Some folks have alternate dreams and maybe not the same abilities you have. Perhaps they would make an amazing educator and find the salary acceptable.

Conversely, I would care a lot if there's some job that would earn me more money that my gender hinders me in attaining (as is sometimes the case for women in tech).

People tend to react badly when their dreams, even if not as profitable as you would like, are hindered or totally roadblocked.

To the extent that society is worse off for the imbalance, part of the solution is better compensating these jobs in the first place.

That doesn't change the fact that these jobs are actually open to a segment of the population. Better salaries just makes the jobs more attractive to people who aren't roadblocked.

We're currently taking advantage of people who have a passion for doing the work by underpaying them, which disproportionately affects women.

Well, the men are being excluded so it cannot take advantage them. If the imbalance is unacceptable then its unacceptable.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#207

Post by village-idiot » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:44 PM UTC

clarityPhone wrote: post #126

duxup wrote: post #8

>Nevertheless, we didn’t expect a threatening reaction followed by several emails, Twitter DMs, persistent phone calls and Whatsapp messages. She even texted my girlfriend, one of the organizers of the conference, whose telephone number is not public and wasn’t given to her at any moment. At the same time, she started contacting other speakers of the conference. At that point you know you made the right choice... the…

Exactly. Her past pattern of poor behavior really speaks for itself. I’d be interested if her husband has a similar reputation in his field. Shame we don’t have any names, if only so their actions yield some sort of consequence. Hopefully court pans out in the author’s favor (assuming what he said is indeed the true rendition of events).

Assuming the story is true as presented. If he’s regularly getting in the habit of publicly attacking people his girlfriend is having conflict with, I am sure his reputation is about as toxic as hers.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#208

Post by revvx » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #124

Many thoughts. Change communication channel immediately. Don't invite someone and when they arrive tell them they are not welcome to speak. Post a list of speakers before, get your feedback and live with your decisions. This is the best thing that could happen to your event. Use this time wisely to boost your event. Is it just me or is there a group of people who seem to go to every conference?

> Don't invite someone and when they arrive tell them they are not welcome to speak. Post a list of speakers before, get your feedback and live with your decisions.

The speaker was notified in April 25. The conference will happen in mid-June. She was given fair warning.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#209

Post by striking » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

ambicapter wrote: post #153

revvx wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched this unfold on twitter, and in the organizer's defense, he only addressed the situation and the culprits after those people started a public discussion regarding the ban. The organizer was defending himself. It's a difficult situation to be in.

Moral of the story: Strike first, strike hard, no mercy? More reasonably but still on the aggressive side, does this mean that now we have to publicly announce when speaker invitations are rescinded to get ahead of the story?

At first glance, it kind of does. Although it makes you wonder what you'd actually put in this public announcement. Would you simply state the facts (along the lines of "sorry, but X isn't going to be speaking after all.") or would there be more detail (read: speculation) included?

I don't really think there's a way to win this. In the event that you're wrong, it'll blow up. In the event that you're right, it still probably will blow up, depending on whether that person (or their fans) go on the offensive or not.

The only actual winning move is not to have played (only inviting people that you know, doing advanced due diligence on anyone a degree of separation away), but are you really winning if you do that? It would seem to seriously limit your horizons.

Re: Bullshit I had to go through while organizing a software conference

#210

Post by bduerst » Tue, May 21, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #175

neilv wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not do doxx, nor take up pitchforks -- not in this case, nor in any other. We can hear someone's report of a terrible experience, and think about the problem, and provide support to that person. However, judgment and sentencing of some other person has very different standards of proof and process.

> judgment and sentencing of some other person has very different standards of proof and process. If this other party is known to many unrelated people over numerous past events for that pattern of behavior, it seems like fair game to me. People out there already know; it's just "connecting the doxx" for the rest.

Please don't. What you're referring to doing is a snowball that routinely can (and does) roll out of control. The internet would be a marginally better place if it didn't turn into mob retaliation at every outrage incident.