Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 256 posts

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#131

Post by yumraj »

bwb wrote: post #125
michaelt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If I take a photo with my Canon camera, Canon doesn't own the photo even though they manufactured the device.

Agreed. If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.

When an application, say a browser, crashes on my computer it asks whether I want to submit the crash log, and I decide whether or not I want to.

I don't want the applications to continually send the data to the vendor.

In your case, Canon will ask to look at your camera or ask for some log, you will give it to them by choice, they will look at it and find/fix the problem. There is no automatic implied approval just because I bought something from someone.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#132

Post by bwb »

inetknght wrote: post #129
bwb wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of us is wrong :), but neither of us is probably right. Your full stop refusal to see the other side is worrisome to me. There are other viewpoints out there, I'd appreciate if you try to understand them. I understand yours but if you react with stubborn hostility, I will mirror it :)

I can see how you might think I'm not seeing other viewpoints. Instead, perhaps you should see that I am rejecting other viewpoints. And I can see how it would worry you: your comments worry me too. So let me re-frame our conversation. Let me re-root it to something that I will not budge on: If I buy a device then I own the data on it. If I own a device then I own the data collected by it. If I own data, then I have…

Yep, I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that I do not agree with you :). I do not think buying a device means that the data it produces is solely yours to control/own.

You are welcome to disagree with me :)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#133

Post by 14 »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #65
ghaff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you don't use a smartphone, for the sake of consistency. It's really hard for me to draw a distinction between home voice assistants that you can activate via a voice command and smartphones that you can activate via a voice command.

Siri and location services are the first things I turn off.

Same. Also Cortana or any other thing like it which is really sad seeing how useful they could be. To have to choose convenience or privacy sucks. I wish there was a middle ground. I would happily pay for a voice assistant that lives on my machine and respects my privacy.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#134

Post by mixmastamyk »

bwb wrote: post #130
mixmastamyk wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very naïve and privileged position. It boils down to "I don't have a problem, so no one else does." You'll probably learn one day you are more vulnerable than you realize. Pick up a history book in the meantime.

It is and I am an old history major so yes I am aware :). I am not advocating for a total loss of privacy, merely that it is is a spectrum, and technology seems to be driving an acceleration of what is socially acceptable. And, that might be a good thing long term. How do you change people's acceptance of things they are afraid of? You show them they don't need to be. You don't do that by hiding and pretending you ar…

Feel free to run to the front of the battle and take the arrows for the rest of us. Chiding others for not sacrificing themselves to boost corporate profits is a shitty thing to do.

I also don't believe you've thought through all the failure modes and misaligned incentives that happen over time.

Not wanting to live in a "1984" dystopia is not extreme by any means.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#135

Post by bradknowles »

doctorRetro wrote: post #90

Why stop at cars? How about: [Device] owners should control data collected by [the device]

Who said you own the device?

You may have paid your money, but with most software it's a license to use or a lease, but not actual ownership.

The same is becoming more and more true for other cases as well.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#136

Post by bwb »

yumraj wrote: post #131
bwb wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.

When an application, say a browser, crashes on my computer it asks whether I want to submit the crash log, and I decide whether or not I want to. I don't want the applications to continually send the data to the vendor. In your case, Canon will ask to look at your camera or ask for some log, you will give it to them by choice , they will look at it and find/fix the problem. There is no automatic implied approval just…

Yep I understand your POV, I don't always agree depending on the data being provided. I think in some cases a good case can be made you don't get that decision if it helps improve health outcomes or improves driving safty or so on.

It is a hard line to draw, but I believe we can do it over the next 50 years as long as we don't draw a hard line that all data is mine.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#137

Post by lohszvu »

agentofuser wrote: post #112

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisens…

Don't go out in public if you don't want to be filmed.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#138

Post by bpchaps »

wool_gather wrote: post #35
tastroder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the how you do it includes where and when you do it, which is a major privacy concern. Sure, a black box to get telemetry after the fact might make sense, with specificity and my explicit knowledge when access happens. I'd have a hard time turning that into free data for any particular company or government to have though, vehicular deaths aren't the only issue in our world.

Very good point. Although, in the case of an accident, isn't your location already a matter of public record?

Probably, but not universally.

Generally, information recorded (or maintained by, and often if contracted through a third party) by a government agency is made public if that state's public records law does not consider it to be private. "Private" is usually defined on a state-by-state basis. Every state has a public records law.

Some states consider license plates to be private, while others don't. Foe example, Illinois considers license plates private only if it's associated with other personally associatable information.

Aggregate or redacted information on accidents might be accessible in the case of privacy exemptions. Unless it's all on paper, which dramatically complicates things because of the efforts required to review/redact where needed.

In other words - if an agency has access to records on traffic incidents, it's probably accessible.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#139

Post by bwb »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #134
bwb wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is and I am an old history major so yes I am aware :). I am not advocating for a total loss of privacy, merely that it is is a spectrum, and technology seems to be driving an acceleration of what is socially acceptable. And, that might be a good thing long term. How do you change people's acceptance of things they are afraid of? You show them they don't need to be. You don't do that by hiding and pretending you ar…

Feel free to run to the front of the battle and take the arrows for the rest of us. Chiding others for not sacrificing themselves to boost corporate profits is a shitty thing to do. I also don't believe you've thought through all the failure modes and misaligned incentives that happen over time. Not wanting to live in a "1984" dystopia is not extreme by any means.

I am not chiding in any way, I apologize as my point must have not been well written if that is how it landed. Sorry :(

We are not in 1984, and that is fiction. I fully acknowledge I have not fully thought through every branch of the problem, but what I don't want to see is this idea that all data is at the hands of the person who played a role in creating it. Some data needs to go back to the company and society if it serves a solid purpose in helping improve either.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#140

Post by nostalgk »

howard941 wrote: post #68
nostalgk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there evidence that the big name home devices like Google Home and Amazon Echo actually collect your speech? I was under the impression it was just a small ARM board that uses recognition to execute commands. My mom has a Dot, but I am clueless.

https://winbuzzer.com/2018/12/20/amazon-accidentally-sent-pe...

Thanks, somehow never noticed this article. For the record, my parent comment isn't rhetorical or sarcastic, I've just entirely avoided the trend and am not the target market.
Post reply on HN