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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#61

Post by KirinDave »

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

If this is such a net good then why does the entire system have to be concealed from users via layers of legal obfuscation?

If it's all in the service of public good, then sure I'm in. But if it is, why is it carefully designed such that at any moment the collectors can productize it? And if I'm a contributor to the data why don't _I_ get any rights to the output?

It's one thing to say, "I observed your public outputs and drew a conclusion and you have no business about that conclusion." I can get behind that, to some extent. But it's another entirely too weave the fabric of your data collection into every device I interact with and use it to monetize my life. It's an insult on top of injury to suggest that I'm not allowed to know about the collection you're using objects I own to execute upon.

Why do you think so little of your own agency?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#62

Post by bwb »

sokoloff wrote: post #51
bwb wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 - On your specific example... what is wrong with visiting strip clubs? Is that not someone's prerogative and legally allowed by society? Why should we be ashamed of that? #2 - I am not saying "no privacy", I want smart privacy :). It is a spectrum, not a binary choice. If that data is combined together so that the city knows traffic on road 1 is high and they need to invest in infrastructure there that is great. O…

Attending AA meetings, being treated for an STD or at a cancer center, and consistently leaving a bar at closing time are all perfectly legal, yet something people may wish to be able to exercise significant privacy over.

Agreed, but that also doesn't mean the data can't be used when stripped of identifiers to improve the product and society.

I don't want cell phone companies selling my specific location, but I also don't want them to not get data from my phone to improve their services where there are drop outs or other issues.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#64

Post by danso »

bwb wrote: post #37
danso wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the device is the primary contributor in terms of “creating the data”, then why are users needed? The users and their personal behavior and usage metrics are obviously the valuable part of the data — not the device that logs and measures the data. Also, (though I’m sure there’s “semantic” nuance in this too), the users are the ones who pay to possess and maintain the data-creating device.

It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections…

So the Census is enshrined in the Constitution, ostensibly because it would be impossible (pragmatically speaking) to facilitate a representative democracy without an accurate population count. I don’t think it’s productive to go off on a tangent about the legitimacy of the U.S. Constitution, unless you actually believe that corporations should be afforded the same role and mandate as the federal govt (in which case, hoo boy, I have no interest in following the rabbit hole of your thinking.

“It’s a symbiotic relationship”

Sorry, you’ll have to do a bit better than that. Many of us are old enough to have owned and driven vehicles quite well with no automated telemetry. The same can’t be said for account-based online social networks, which have always required user data to fundamentally function.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#65

Post by mixmastamyk »

ghaff wrote: post #25
cheerlessbog wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as creepy as giving a big corporation access to microphones around your house. It astounds me that much of America has done exactly that.

I assume you don't use a smartphone, for the sake of consistency. It's really hard for me to draw a distinction between home voice assistants that you can activate via a voice command and smartphones that you can activate via a voice command.

Siri and location services are the first things I turn off.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#66

Post by rootusrootus »

nostalgk wrote: post #27
cheerlessbog wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as creepy as giving a big corporation access to microphones around your house. It astounds me that much of America has done exactly that.

Is there evidence that the big name home devices like Google Home and Amazon Echo actually collect your speech? I was under the impression it was just a small ARM board that uses recognition to execute commands. My mom has a Dot, but I am clueless.

The device itself has enough processing power to detect the wake word, everything you say after that goes to their datacenter to be processed.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#67

Post by davemp »

stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

> If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

I'd be more likely to agree if traffic laws weren't already such an arbitrary garbage fire of selective enforcement.

Though assuming this data was not networked and belonged to the individual (can still be used as evidence is court), a black-box is probably a good idea.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#68

Post by howard941 »

nostalgk wrote: post #27
cheerlessbog wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as creepy as giving a big corporation access to microphones around your house. It astounds me that much of America has done exactly that.

Is there evidence that the big name home devices like Google Home and Amazon Echo actually collect your speech? I was under the impression it was just a small ARM board that uses recognition to execute commands. My mom has a Dot, but I am clueless.

https://winbuzzer.com/2018/12/20/amazon-accidentally-sent-pe...

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#69

Post by judge2020 »

inetknght wrote: post #53
bwb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections…

> It is a symbiotic relationship :) What you are saying is that users don't have a choice in the matter.

The choice is "you can choose not to form that relationship [with that vehicle]" (choose not to drive, or purchase a "dumb" car that still has a backup camera and blind spot monitor)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#70

Post by inetknght »

bwb wrote: post #52
danso wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, I usually expect these threads to turn into “but Orwell!” vs “but what do you have to hide?”, but this is the first time I can remember (at least on HN) in which a thread so quickly jumped to “but why should your sexual orientation not be for the public to know?” It’s great that you are in a situation where you believe you are able to publicize your sexual identity without detrimental consequences. But it…

Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.

> My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions.

What world do you live in where fear is unreasonable? The world is not the happy place that you very clearly think it is.

I have personal friends and family who have very legitimate reasons to demand enforced privacy. People who've been abused by others; who've been abused by people who have made serious threats against livelihoods.

People whose opinions are different from those around them would be at significant risk to life, limb, and sanity if those opinions were to become known by others.

> I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society > This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN. *

You need to recognize that data is also hugely powerful in destroying it too. I think many on HN are able to and have recognized this.

> and we need strong regulations to protect both sides.

I agree; but I think the regulations and enforcement should absolutely err on the side of the user if there is ever a disagreement between the two.

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