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Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

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Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#111

Post by rootusrootus »

michaelt wrote: post #82
wiggler00m wrote: post #22

"What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear." Carmakers will reduce the mortality rate from motor vehicle accidents to almost zero (with full autonomy), using the collected data. There were 37,133 MV deaths in the USA in 2017 (more than 0.01% of the population) according to Wiki.

Car makers will get data they can use to simulate and test their self-driving cars. But car makers will also get full GPS traces - showing where you live, where you work, where you shop and every time you speed. And they'll probably get what phone was seen on bluetooth, how many seats were occupied, and what radio station was listened to. All identifiable by vehicle, and very close to identifiable by driver. Will the…

With occupant weight sensors in the seats, I bet they could pretty accurately identify the driver and passengers. Maybe our car will start sending us notes when we gain weight, reminding us that we haven't been seen at the gym location lately.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#112

Post by agentofuser »

If I'm a pedestrian getting my body filmed, 3D-scanned, with potential facial recognition and internal-organs-penetrating sensors added on top, _I'm_ the one who should own that data (and the right to not consent to its collection in the first place). Why are people weirded out by some Google Glass-wearing rando filming them on the sidewalk but ok for everyone behind a wheel to be suddenly promoted to a CCTV omnisensing recorder?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#113

Post by bwb »

inetknght wrote: post #78
bwb wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owning a device is not owning the data. Full stop :)

You are wrong.

Neither of us is wrong :), but neither of us is probably right. Your full stop refusal to see the other side is worrisome to me. There are other viewpoints out there, I'd appreciate if you try to understand them. I understand yours but if you react with stubborn hostility, I will mirror it :)

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#114

Post by scalio »

bwb wrote: post #17
mattmanser wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I own the car and it is, in reality, extremely sensitive data that can reveal everything from your political beliefs to your sexual orientation.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn'…

You should check out what happened less than a century ago. Among other things, it started this whole digital conundrum.

It's naive to think that concentrating so much power over so many people in the hands of so few people can go any sort of well. What happens when the regulators, or the ones charged of overseeing them, want in on the fun? What if they're coerced, which suddenly is trivial to do?

Progress comes from individuals, as such, individuals should be empowered by great tools to make the most of their data. Wanting corporations to solve all the problems is another case of pushing off personal responsibility.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#115

Post by bwb »

inetknght wrote: post #70
bwb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.

> My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. What world do you live in where fear is unreasonable? The world is not the happy place that you very clearly think it is. I have personal friends and family who have very legitimate reasons to demand enforced privacy. People who've been abused by others; who've been abused by people who have made serious threats against…

I agree with most of that. I think we are closer than you think on this. I do recognize the power of data, but I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#116

Post by bwb »

danso wrote: post #84
bwb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.

> I feel like that is just a fear-based response to the world, maybe we all need to be more open about who we are both for ourselves and for other people in the world. This is a textbook presumption — you insinuate that someone’s desire to not publicly transmit their sexual/politics must be irrational, and/or everyone (or even most people) is actually in a situation where they don’t have to fear that. What is this “e…

Yes, it is a presumption, that doesn't mean it might not be something to think about and consider?

I don't think I need to explain the extreme privacy view, it is alive and well in this community.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#117

Post by rootusrootus »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #85
stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

> But given the number of vehicular deaths Or we could spend a small fraction of the war on drugs on more traffic cops and save many more lives than the war on drugs has. Driving is extremely dangerous, and there is a significant number of people out there making it even more so by tailgating, suicide lane switches, and excessive speeding for the road conditions.

With an average of one death per 100,000,000 miles traveled, I don't know if I'd rate driving as extremely dangerous.

Otherwise, I kinda agree. Eliminate drunk driving and make it so everyone is wearing a seatbelt, and the fatality rate would drop by half.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#118

Post by nimbius »

disclosure: im a full-time engine mechanic for a chain of midwestern diesel repair shops.

Quite a bit of this data is already at your fingertips! open source OBD readers exist for linux. I use this one regularly to pull and reset codes for older mercedes: https://samhobbs.co.uk/2015/04/scantool-obdii-car-diagnostic...

the OBD is the computer in your car for sensors but has turned into a massive repository for anything CAN (car network) related. Some newer cars store radio station presets, seat positions, and even dimmer settings in the OBD alongside their battery-backed RAM. some models of BMW even store the unlock codes for their pricy radios in the OBD tables.

hardware like onstar is stored in a dedicated metal box usually under the glove compartment in most cars. it includes a harness for the OBD data, and a small modem usually mated with a riser. That modem also controls any wireless features and of course cellular transmissions. if you dont like your car phoning home, you can pull the riser or clip the antenna leads, but this will likely also affect wifi. Bluetooth pairing is generally part of the head unit in older cars, but if you have onstar this is commonly being added to the daughterboard for wifi.

as for processing? absolutely. sensor samples are sometimes taken thousands of times per second for things like airbag state and seatbelt pretensors. i guess if you counted up the bits and bytes over the CAM as your datapoint, then yeah its 25GB of data...but its not meaningful...unless youre in the process of a crash.

onstar is always my biggest gripe. anything that can remotely stop my car or unlock my doors makes me a little too paranoid, and ive never once pressed that stupid button expecting to speak to anyone who can help do anything meaningful.

but what about emergencies? onstar uses data triggers from the OBD/CAM to sense airbags in the deploy state, and that apparently triggers an automatic dial out to onstar whether you like it or not. If youre removing or replacing airbags, that means you have to disconnect onstar first or youll wind up with firetrucks and ambulances outside your garage. Speaking from experience.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#119

Post by bwb »

sokoloff wrote: post #75
bwb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but that also doesn't mean the data can't be used when stripped of identifiers to improve the product and society. I don't want cell phone companies selling my specific location, but I also don't want them to not get data from my phone to improve their services where there are drop outs or other issues.

Our history of completely anonymizing data is not good. "We have no idea which anonymous car it is that consistently drives between bwb's house, bwb's work, unsavory place X, unsavory place Y, and back to bwb's house everyday".

Agreed, like I said we need strong regulation and enforcement, but that doesn't mean we throw everything out because it is hard to do. It means we need to have the conversation about it and try to craft regulation/enforcement that supports society and doesn't take advantage of it.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#120

Post by bwb »

rootusrootus wrote: post #103
bwb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but that also doesn't mean the data can't be used when stripped of identifiers to improve the product and society. I don't want cell phone companies selling my specific location, but I also don't want them to not get data from my phone to improve their services where there are drop outs or other issues.

We have seen repeatedly that anonymizing data effectively is actually quite a lot more difficult than it seems. I'd much rather that we whitelist the data we think is worth collecting and analyzing for product improvement, instead of trying to blacklist the things we prefer are kept private.

Agreed, I am not saying I have the answer, but what I don't want is this movement happening in Europe and budding here that all data is MINE, and can't serve society/product improvements.

I think that def might be a better approach.

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