Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 256 posts

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#81

Post by Silhouette »

the_snooze wrote: post #43

Something that bothers me is why are companies so casual about attaching fragile networked software to long-lived durable goods like cars? The manufacturer has no economic or legal incentive to keep that patched over the life of the hardware. This is the rotten shortsighted mindset of modern-day tech: all the benefit for the company, none of the responsibility.

Something that bothers me is why are companies so casual about attaching fragile networked software to long-lived durable goods like cars? The manufacturer has no economic or legal incentive to keep that patched over the life of the hardware.

Indeed. See also: almost all new TVs are now "smart" TVs, almost all new phones are now "smart" phones, a high proportion of "smart home" and IoT devices simply stop working if some remote service is discontinued (or your Internet connection is slow or down), and so on.

Without reaching much further, mobile operating systems, Windows 10 and a significant amount of locally run desktop software are also practically built around phoning home and relying on remote services by design now, and doing some shady things around tying security or compatibility updates in with other changes you might not want or need.

I came around to the view some time ago that some sort of fairly draconian regulation is the only way to stop this. It simply shouldn't be a prerequisite for using normal, everyday devices that you have to give up your privacy, nor a prerequisite for continuing to use something with a software element the same way as when you bought it that you have to accept arbitrary changes in the software or legal terms later.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#82

Post by michaelt »

wiggler00m wrote: post #22

"What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear." Carmakers will reduce the mortality rate from motor vehicle accidents to almost zero (with full autonomy), using the collected data. There were 37,133 MV deaths in the USA in 2017 (more than 0.01% of the population) according to Wiki.

Car makers will get data they can use to simulate and test their self-driving cars.

But car makers will also get full GPS traces - showing where you live, where you work, where you shop and every time you speed. And they'll probably get what phone was seen on bluetooth, how many seats were occupied, and what radio station was listened to. All identifiable by vehicle, and very close to identifiable by driver.

Will they manage to make good use of the former, while avoiding the temptation to monetise the latter?

Of course, Google gets a bunch of data from Android users already, so one might very well argue most users aren't concerned about such things.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#84

Post by danso »

bwb wrote: post #52
danso wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry, I usually expect these threads to turn into “but Orwell!” vs “but what do you have to hide?”, but this is the first time I can remember (at least on HN) in which a thread so quickly jumped to “but why should your sexual orientation not be for the public to know?” It’s great that you are in a situation where you believe you are able to publicize your sexual identity without detrimental consequences. But it…

Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.

> I feel like that is just a fear-based response to the world, maybe we all need to be more open about who we are both for ourselves and for other people in the world.

This is a textbook presumption — you insinuate that someone’s desire to not publicly transmit their sexual/politics must be irrational, and/or everyone (or even most people) is actually in a situation where they don’t have to fear that.

What is this “extreme privacy movement” that you speak of? Data-collecting tech companies are global titans, and the public’s status quo acceptance/complacency of this is a major reason for these companies’ success. And this is even the case in America, in which the 4th Amendment is a significant bar for government to clear for any kind of search and seizure, even though citizen compliance with authority is another type of “symbiotic” relationship.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#85

Post by jimktrains2 »

stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

> But given the number of vehicular deaths

Or we could spend a small fraction of the war on drugs on more traffic cops and save many more lives than the war on drugs has. Driving is extremely dangerous, and there is a significant number of people out there making it even more so by tailgating, suicide lane switches, and excessive speeding for the road conditions.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#86

Post by mixmastamyk »

bwb wrote: post #17
mattmanser wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I own the car and it is, in reality, extremely sensitive data that can reveal everything from your political beliefs to your sexual orientation.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn'…

That's a very naïve and privileged position. It boils down to "I don't have a problem, so no one else does." You'll probably learn one day you are more vulnerable than you realize.

Pick up a history book in the meantime.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#87

Post by danso »

wool_gather wrote: post #33
danso wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data collected by phones are used to train systems like web/voice search, voice translation, and routing algorithms, all which ostensibly (or, at least, purportedly) benefit billions of end users on a daily basis. I don’t see how you can say Tesla’s case is so obviously a more justified example. In any case, this article is about all cars — Tesla vehicles are still a sliver of the user base.

Maybe (some of) the information collected by the OS vendor is used for these purposes. The majority of it, the stuff sent by third-party SDKs back to that third party, is just to enable customer profiling or "analytics".

Sorry, what’s this straw man argument that you’ve attributed to me? That I’ve asserted every piece of data collected by Android goes toward a public good?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#88

Post by inetknght »

dominotw wrote: post #56
inetknght wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by 'not allowed'. you have the option to not buy tsla if its such a concern to you. This is a dangerous way of thinking. Transportation is a requirement for getting ahead in life. Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation.

> Signing away your rights to privacy should not ever be a requirement to obtain transportation. Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing. Creating preemptive 'not allowed' laws would be throwing baby out of bathwater.

> Lets talk about this when this is actually a thing.

Waiting until later will adversely affect many millions, potentially billions, of people.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#89

Post by ryandrake »

dominotw wrote: post #23
yumraj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If data is generated by something I own then it is my data and I don't care if it affects someone's business model or whatever perceived future benefit they are promising. And trying to maintain status quo is not extreme privacy movement , it's common sense.

https://www.tesla.com/about/legal there is section for "From or about your Tesla vehicle" Its a bit weird to agree to this when buying your vehicle and complain about it later. Its not like they are doing it behind your back like FB, they are telling you upfront what they are collecting. how can you possibly have a problem with that.

I read the privacy policy behind your link expecting to be outraged, but they do seem to offer opt-outs, which is barely acceptable. They claim if you do not consent to their data collection, to “contact them” which is encouraging. I’d love to read about the experience of an actual Tesla owner who actually went through the process of denying consent to Tesla and see if it actually worked.
Post reply on HN