Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#11

Post by cheerlessbog » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

What if the data revealed your predilection for visiting strip clubs? Would you want to have control over that information? At least with Google maps you control when it is on - and there is a privacy policy of some sort.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#12

Post by cheerlessbog » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

0n34n7 wrote: post #7

Pfhreak wrote: post #6

Why limit this to just cars? Is there something unique about cars? Why not phone users? Or internet users?

Let’s throw in our toasters, fridges and washing machines as well. Then some data scientist can correlate the best before dates of foods in my fridge by the number of panties in the washer in order to target me with ads for tummy meds.

Not as creepy as giving a big corporation access to microphones around your house. It astounds me that much of America has done exactly that.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#13

Post by lmkg » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #6

Why limit this to just cars? Is there something unique about cars? Why not phone users? Or internet users?

I think the big thing is that people expect their phones to leak some data. It communicates by definition, and that is essential to its operation. The fact that your car leaks such a large volume of sensitive data is surprising, and because it doesn't "need" to collect this data to perform its main function, which is converting dinosaurs into motion.

A car also holds a different place in the American consciousness, although that may be shifting. We see our car as an extension of self, while the phone is a connection to other people. We have greater expectations of control and privacy from the first than the second.

But to your point: I think the same statement should also be true of other data as well.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#14

Post by bwb » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #3

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

> I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". Huh? How is users wanting to control the personal data they create (e.g. telemetrics) an “extreme” movement?

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role.

We still need strong regulations and gov agencies to enforce/protect, but I just don't see the point of claiming everything is your data blah blah.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#15

Post by js2 » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

> Modern cars collect as much as 25 gigabytes of data per hour.

Links to this McKinsey study as a source:

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/...

Which says:

> Today’s car has the computing power of 20 personal computers, features about 100 million lines of programming code, and processes up to 25 gigabytes of data an hour.

McKinsey doesn't cite any sources. But more importantly, processing 25 GB/hour is not exactly the same as collecting it. The later, in the context of this article, is definitely trying to imply that the data is stored in some sort of semi-permanent record. So, the piece is at least a little disingenuous. That said, I agree with the premise that to the extent data is saved, it should belong to the vehicle owner, not the manufacturer.

Tangent: "the computing power of 20 personal computers." What are they trying to say here? I've got a 2017 Chevy Volt and 2016 Mazda CX-9 and I'd be shocked if there were half that much computing power between the two of them. Maybe they are trying to say there's 20 CPUs among the various systems in a modern car? Still that seems like a lot.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#16

Post by danso » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

bhauer wrote: post #10

What? > We know our smartphones, Nests and Alexas collect data, and we’ve come to accept an implicit contract: We trade personal information for convenience. With cars, we have no such expectation ... What carmakers are doing with the collected data isn’t clear. At least Tesla has demonstrated that their data collection is for training their full self-driving capability. That represents tremendous end-user value, in…

The data collected by phones are used to train systems like web/voice search, voice translation, and routing algorithms, all which ostensibly (or, at least, purportedly) benefit billions of end users on a daily basis. I don’t see how you can say Tesla’s case is so obviously a more justified example. In any case, this article is about all cars — Tesla vehicles are still a sliver of the user base.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#17

Post by bwb » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #5

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

Because I own the car and it is, in reality, extremely sensitive data that can reveal everything from your political beliefs to your sexual orientation.

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :)

Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn't hurt others or society.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#18

Post by stefan_ » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data.

But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#19

Post by shatteredvisage » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #18

I'm all for retaining ownership of your Spotify playlists, Bluetooth synced contact list and location data. But given the number of vehicular deaths, I'm all for having authorities access blackbox-style data like pedal state, acceleration vectors etc. that some controllers already keep around. If you are operating a 100 kW machine in public, how you do it isn't a privacy concern.

Yes it is, or did you go ahead and install that blackbox geico has been trying to sell you?

Re: Car Owners Should Control Data Collected by Cars

#20

Post by ocdtrekkie » Tue, May 21, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #2

Why? Why not have that data go someplace it could do real good in informing better safety systems, better traffic management and so on. Privacy is a spectrum, I am getting kinda tired how people think data about them is "theirs". In some cases maybe it should be, in other cases, it should not be. Now maybe you should have a right to see it, download it, and remove identifying markers but I am so tired of this extreme…

Hey, if the car manufacturer wants my data, fine. But they should have to buy it from me, not be allowed to build a system that gives them my data for free by default.

What Tesla does in particular is extremely egregious: Even if you don't pay for Autopilot and hence can't use those sensors, Tesla still collects data using sensors you own on your car!