Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019 • Hacker News Board

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#291

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #21

stirkac wrote: post #6

This is why I would never invest too much into Smart Home. While my phone may be expected to last for a few years only, I don't want my house deprecated because of a takeover/bankruptcy of a company.

Reconsider. I'd say these are two safe options: 1) Go with a cloud service using products exclusively made by a single major company, like Google or Amazon. This is simpler to setup and maintain but more expensive. 2) Go with an open source solution, like Home Assistant. Cheaper option with more control but requires a lot of time to learn, setup and maintain. Both options should be considered safe at this point. Edit…

If you don't want to deal with 2), I'd add:

3) Find a local home automation company and look at their offerings. There's a chance you'll find people willing to sell you actual products that are optionally Internet-connected, but not Internet-first, and are not tied to a garbage SaaS. They'll install and service them for you too. Key words here are "home automation"; I find looking for this phrase instead of "IoT" to weed out a lot of garbage.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#292

Post by bradlys » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #272

bradlys wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even a matter of "safe". I live in a neighborhood that is seen as very safe. Yet, we had a burglary two houses down not too long ago. And they happen frequently enough to myself. I've had plenty stolen. Without a camera, there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught. I ended up buying a camera for peace of mind and for checking in on my place to see who's entering my residence area. Sometimes it's genuinely help…

> Without a camera, there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught. If you're only interested in recording what happened (as evidence) an IP camera can run on PoE to a laptop or mini-pc on a UPS, and record for as long as you want, even in the case of a power outage if you include a UPS (an old laptop works well in this case - you can potentially just run the PoE switch/injector on the UPS and let the laptop run on its ba…

But then they can also steal the laptop or mini-pc that is recording. It's also a PITA to setup and manage yourself. I'd rather pay the $50/yr that I do and just have someone else do it. I'm done with the bradlys-as-a-service thing. It'd be another thing adding heat to my living environment as well.

It's been useful for other things like checking in on. Where/when packages are delivered, when the landlord showed up, when a neighbor came over to tell us something but we didn't hear them knock on the door, finding out my smoke alarm was going off for no apparent reason, etc.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#293

Post by Gorbzel » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #203

dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

This is pure FUD. I'm disappointed that it's got so many responses on HN instead of being down-voted in exchange for a better anti-IoT argument at the top instead. But hey, sure, let's go through this: - I don't care about some dude you saw on TV. A single anecdote means nothing. Even less when it's someone not representative of the population. - A strawman convenience is another terrible argument. Sometimes it matte…

Nope, your comment is just rationalization disguised as exasperated criticism.

When a given product/technology just fundamentally doesn’t work, or even worse is a security nightmare, you don’t get to write it off as a risk that didn’t cost much. Especially since that last part isn’t true in most cases.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#294

Post by vl » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

samsolomon wrote: post #83

Curious, does anyone have a good manual thermostat that they like? Part of the reason Nest has done so well is most programmable thermostats are horrible to use. I'm a product designer and I don't understand how the scheduling works. Scheduling isn't something I really need for my studio. At night I turn the AC on, in the morning I turn it off. Don't really need to turn on the heat in the winter. I'd love is a qualit…

Modern multi-stage Furnaces/ACs/heat pumps need intelligent thermostats to control them in the first place. When there is more control needed than simply on/off, if used with dumb thermostat (or, ironically, Nest) modern equipment is not going to work in the most efficient mode.

This is why modern home HVAC systems usually come with their own thermostats, and if you are looking to install new HVAC system, basically the only thing you need to consider is how well thermostat works - everything else is more or less the same.

Anyway, my Bryant thermostat works quite fine, and I consider it to be easier to use than Nest, which I had before.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#295

Post by JadeNB » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #283

AlexandrB wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 5 years when all the crap is worked out and you eventually buy a system with extra security at your door or backyard, or a something to that effect I'd like you to come back and admit it. I heard this same song and dance 5 years ago. The problems with the "IoT" market are foundational. Most IoT devices are not designed to be used for extended periods without internet access and a continuous stream of updates. Th…

>Most IoT devices are not designed to be used for extended periods without internet access and a continuous stream of updates. But you could design one with a manual fallback option. Doesn't seem foundational to me. Nothing about an IoT design prevents one from doing that. >The latter means that unlike traditional home hardware, once you install "smart" devices you're at the mercy of the business plans of the vendor.…

> But you could design one with a manual fallback option. Doesn't seem foundational to me. Nothing about an IoT design prevents one from doing that.

Certainly I could (or at least someone with the engineering skills could), but the actual IoT companies don't. My impression of IoT devices (do not want) is based on what actually exists, not on what could theoretically exist.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#296

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #67

YayamiOmate wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about. This whole situation is a one great counterexample to your 1). Making any company a single point of failure is a bad idea. You are basically giving up your freedom of choice for maybe some convenience, but don't confuse it with guarantee of sustained service.

I'm talking about buying a single brand of product. Not buying things that are compatible with that brand, buying specifically just that brand .

Again, unless that company has a great track record, you'll probably get screwed rather quickly. Google is not such company, for example. Also, any startup is out of the question too; half-life of VC-backed SaaSes is on the order of a year or two.

IMO buying any hardware tied to a SaaS is a dumb idea.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#297

Post by greenyoda » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #240

iscrewyou wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a smart home device and I won't buy it in a few years. And the simple reason is that there is no regulation for bad behavior. These companies keep getting away with massive privacy violations. We can dig into the big companies but at this time, that point has been beaten to death. When there is better regulation and the software engineers are being jailed for violations of privacy, I will trust the syste…

s/software engineers/management team/

As a software engineer, I don't software engineers should be immune from prosecution if they knowingly violate laws. Your manager telling you to do something (even under threat of firing) is not an excuse if you know that it's illegal. For example, the guy who wrote the software for Bernie Madoff's company knew that he was helping Madoff perpetrate fraud, and ended up in prison.[1]

[1] http://static7.businessinsider.com/r-ex-madoff-computer-prog...

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#298

Post by NikolaNovak » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #26

NikolaNovak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Any Google service other than Gmail and Google Maps may come and go I felt Gmail was at _significant_ risk when Inbox was announced; result was unexpected.

Inbox by Google was never a separate service it was an alternative front-end UI, so I don't see how it would indicate a risk to Gmail the service (which has had many UI changes over the years, including a clumsy and incomplete incorporation of Inbox features.)

I guess we had different perception - it happens :).

Understanding that underlying infra, when you go deep enough, may have been shared between Gmail & Inbox, same is much the case for all email services anywhere; it IS the front-end UI, and featured enabled by it, that by and large makes an email product.

Marketing at the time seemed to indicate and place Inbox as a separate product, and more than one note from Google hinted that it would replace Gmail. In hindsight it obviously didn't happen, but many of us thought it presented a significant risk to Gmail; just as recently people were looking for "Inbox alternatives" due to its demise, at the time we were searching for "Gmail alternatives" due to potential replacement by Inbox (which I think was a brilliant idea and potentially implementation - but I'm too much of a control freak to utilize:).

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#299

Post by nominated1 » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #217

smbullet wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of us live in safe neighborhoods like yourself.

It's not even a matter of "safe". I live in a neighborhood that is seen as very safe. Yet, we had a burglary two houses down not too long ago. And they happen frequently enough to myself. I've had plenty stolen. Without a camera, there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught. I ended up buying a camera for peace of mind and for checking in on my place to see who's entering my residence area. Sometimes it's genuinely help…

Seems like “victim preparation” to me. How about a deterrent?

My neighborhood has had thefts too. I assume my two dogs barking have been enough to keep them at bay. It wouldn’t surprise me if statistically this holds true elsewhere. Low hanging fruit and all.

Have you considered a motion sensor tied to a speaker that plays dogs barking/rustling?

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#300

Post by bradlys » Fri, May 10, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #253

bradlys wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even a matter of "safe". I live in a neighborhood that is seen as very safe. Yet, we had a burglary two houses down not too long ago. And they happen frequently enough to myself. I've had plenty stolen. Without a camera, there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught. I ended up buying a camera for peace of mind and for checking in on my place to see who's entering my residence area. Sometimes it's genuinely help…

If you're frequently having things stolen, you don't live in a "very safe" neighborhood. I've lived in working class neighborhoods most of my life, and the only thing I've ever had stolen from me was a bike that I left on my front porch when I was a kid. The only thing the people I know have had stolen is stuff like car stereos or GPS devices back before most people used their phones. Just small crime of opportunity…

I've lived in a variety of areas across the west coast. In all of them, rural to dense city environments... things were stolen. I've had multiple bikes stolen, my car, my backpacks, my eye glasses (yes - that is weird), and more... And they were all in a variety of areas. I still classify many of those areas as "safe" and so do many reports but theft still happens.

Almost nowhere is "safe" from thieves. If you live in a "nice area" like any of the more expensive neighborhoods/cities in the bay area then you're very prone to burglary because go figure you likely have expensive stuff that's good for stealing. Unless you have really good defense mechanisms to detour/stop thieves (or just nothing worth stealing) then you're going to get stuff stolen.

Property crime isn't the same as violent crime.