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Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

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Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#181

Post by pjc50 »

derefr wrote: post #104
nine_k wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't help but quote: «“the "Internet of Things" won't work until the "Local Area Network of Things" works», seen here on HN [1]. There's significantly less money in it, though, and more hassle. It's not going to become popular enough until people get burned enough with vendors going out of business, or just stopping support, and making their convenient $199 gadgets obsolete. In a sense, a large company like Nest pul…

I would say that the Local Area Network of Things has existed for decades, but the intricacies of its deployment means that so far, it’s required a network admin to set up. The most classical example of such “things” are softphones. They need their own vxlan and switch QOS policies and so forth, to function the way people expect phones to work (rather than flaking out when someone is torrenting.) Softphone deployment…

The home phone example is a good one, because as you say the softphones are too much hassle - but in this one case, because you're connecting to the real regulated phone system, the ""cloud"" solution of using your cellphone to make a call across the house Just Works (+). All of the anti-competitive nonsense about not interoperating with different phones or deliberately obsoleting the service goes away. The hardware manufacturer and the service provider are separated, and you can choose a new service provider by swapping the SIM.

The tradeoff is that the quality is kind of bad and the ongoing fees comparatively high relative to IoT.

There's even the old DECT phones, if anyone's still using those.

(+ except where the internet companies have tried to break this by routing you through Hangouts or some other thing that isn't the phone system)

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#182

Post by plttn »

Andrex wrote: post #95
Kique wrote: post #28

I kind of like how Google is moving all the home related products to the Nest brand. We always talk about Google branding being the worst but I think this is actually a logical move to one brand for everything Home. I also like that I'll be able to use my google login for my Nest products in the future, and the author even agrees that the Nest app is not great and the Google Home app is what I currently use anyway fo…

Yes, I agree. The brand consolidation is long overdue, as are any meaningful updates and fixes to the Nest app. Those are two definite positives of this move. Moving to Google Accounts is more murky: I can definitely see and sympathize with arguments on the basis of Google's overall business model and how it seems off for an ad company to be creating products for the home. With that said, Nest accounts (like the app)…

Agreed. I don't personally have any Nest hardware in my home, but I do have the app on my phone for family members' home, and the app is definitely kind of meh at best.

For all the backlash Google has gotten lately, it really does seem like they're trying to be more open with their privacy controls lately (disabling the option to turn off the camera light), as well as encouraging more security.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#183

Post by danans »

eloisant wrote: post #138
scarface74 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How sustainable? There are only three ways to sell a thermostat. - at the time a home is being built when it’s easy to get all sorts of add ons bundle through the builder. How many homes are being built in a year? - as a self service after market upgrade to your existing thermostat. In the grand scheme of things, how many people are willing to do that? -working with service companies or building out a network of inst…

It probably depends on the countries but your thermostat is usually tied to your HVAC system, i.e. you usually change your thermostat when you change your HVAC, so it's more often than when homes are built. So the best way to get volume is probably to partner with a HVAC maker.

> i.e. you usually change your thermostat when you change your HVAC

This isn't a technical requirement (in the US at least). Thermostat HVAC connections follow a simple wiring/control scheme, which is why smart thermostats can be retrofit at all.

That said, replacing an inefficient and poorly balanced HVAC system with a newer well designed one, and insulating a house to modern standards will save far more on operating costs than a smart thermostat, but it is orders of magnitude more expensive in upfront costs.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#184

Post by Sir_Substance »

pathartl wrote: post #179
dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

I think it's more about managing expectations. I for one have not had a scenario where I haven't been able to turn on/off the lights because of a service outage... because I'm not dumb and I don't buy smart bulbs. I replace switches that can work independently from their smart features. I'm at the point where living without smart lights is very inconvenient. I was at my parents the other day carrying a heavy can of g…

>I was at my parents the other day carrying a heavy can of garbage through their completely black basement. Instead of just being able to tell my voice assistant to turn on the basement lights, I had to fumble around to find the right switch that actually lights the room.

That's a highly specific scenario that I personally would solve with a motion sensor light if I felt it was likely to happen often.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#185

Post by spaginal »

dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

I use Zwave smart switches in my shop, tied to smart power strips for various lighting, fans, and tools at different stations in the shop.

Instead of having to rewire switches physically everytime I move something, I can program different routines depending on my needs, and nothing is tied down in my shop, I can always reconfigure the layout to make it more efficient if need be.

It’s been a life saver and it’s saved my energy bill also.

I’m in there 10 hours a day sometimes, and I love the home automation stuff, I just use it not in the home.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#186

Post by weberc2 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

If you're looking to IoT devices to fill your life with meaning and purpose, yes, you'll be disappointed. If you want meager quality of life improvements and aren't overtly trying to have a bad experience (as you describe in your last two paragraphs), you'll probably be pretty happy with your purchases.

My wife and I use smart sockets and switches to turn on and off lights by voice command rather than walking around to every lamp and hunting around for the switches as we used to do. Was it a massive time savings? No. Did it change our lives substantially? No. Was it a small quality of life improvement? Yes. And yeah, there are issues--Alexa gets confused when you try to change the label associated with a device. But the issue was easily fixed and we were no worse off than we were before the purchase.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#187

Post by Bartweiss »

sixdimensional wrote: post #66
zelly wrote: post #46

We are all used to SaaS randomly getting obsoleted, but when you buy a physical device you kind of expect to own it forever. But no, cloud and IoT means even your physical stuff are SaaS products. Just stop buying the trash.

Ah, the “digital transformation”, where hardware becomes a service, and you lose control of it, and corporations extract an income stream from you ad infinitum. While great advances come from availability of technology at a reduced up-front price, at what cost to the basic principles and advantages of ownership, privacy, cost depreciation, long term use of assets, etc. has our new world come? This is a good reminder…

Microsoft used to run Zune ads to the effect that it "cost $30,000" to fill an iPod, while you could get everything you wanted on a Zune for just $15 a month! As many people pointed out, what this actually meant was that a permanent music collection for a Zune cost infinity dollars. Admittedly, at $15/month you could get 166 years of subscription for that $30k. Unless, of course, Microsoft shuttered the program - which they did within a decade. Meanwhile, my decade-old iPod nano still works fine and is still a pretty good music player to take on runs.

And really, that was the best case. Microsoft supported their legacy setup long after they stopped selling it, then finally offered refunds and support for importing playlists to Spotify. Newer, post-transformation services have dropped all pretense of guarantees or ownership; the Kindle Store revokes access to titles or whole collections so casually that the words "your library" are essentially a bad joke.

Even news has gone the same way. I had a very bad moment the first time I went to link someone to an article and found that the body had been completely rewritten with no editor's note (and not for correctness). News companies aren't profiting on the transition like music sellers did, but basic concepts like newspaper archives and the "paper of record" are thrown into doubt by the loss of ownership and content stability.

The story about farmers hacking back ownership of their tractors is surprising only because it's a bit ahead of the curve on hardware. We're still in the early days of this hardware-as-a-service transition, and it's going produce much uglier surprises than the ones we got with software.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#188

Post by deadmutex »

jmontano wrote: post #25
nutjob2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Apple has never cancelled a product.

I think DIY is the best route. Considering change is inevitable, I guess the safest route is to start and lead that change yourself. In the end we are all humans even companies like Apple are run by humans.

This isn't scalable though.

This is similar to running a wireless network for yourself vs your non-tech family members. For family members, it is easy to just get Google Wifi/Eero, and have good wifi through the home. For your own home, you _may_ consider running OpenWRT, and creating a bunch of VLANs, etc.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#189

Post by AlexandrB »

rhacker wrote: post #174
dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

This is the exact kind of comment that would make it to the top because it just empowered everyone that DOESN'T have one such system. It's filled with finger pointing. Most of the replies basically point out yeah, I hate IoT lights, but this use case is good... It's not genuine to dismiss the entire enchilada because YOU don't have it. In 5 years when all the crap is worked out and you eventually buy a system with ex…

> In 5 years when all the crap is worked out and you eventually buy a system with extra security at your door or backyard, or a something to that effect I'd like you to come back and admit it.

I heard this same song and dance 5 years ago. The problems with the "IoT" market are foundational. Most IoT devices are not designed to be used for extended periods without internet access and a continuous stream of updates. The former means that, in general, they are only as reliable as your internet connection (including that crappy modem/router the ISP gave you). The latter means that unlike traditional home hardware, once you install "smart" devices you're at the mercy of the business plans of the vendor. So even if you get something set up that works acceptably, it will last 5 years tops (see Nest) before the vendor's priorities change.

Finally to address the "extra security" comment. Security from what? The developed world is objectively safer than ever, why would I invest in "solutions" to problems invented out of whole cloth? The paranoia of people installing cameras all over their own home (often cameras whose footage they have no real control over) astounds me. We're more mistrustful of our own neighbours than the companies that are actually exploiting our privacy and manipulating us psychologically for profit.

Re: Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019

#190

Post by pjc50 »

rhacker wrote: post #174
dustinmoris wrote: post #97

Smart people don't buy smart home devices. My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This problem has been solved by other people many many years ago. Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his multi million man…

This is the exact kind of comment that would make it to the top because it just empowered everyone that DOESN'T have one such system. It's filled with finger pointing. Most of the replies basically point out yeah, I hate IoT lights, but this use case is good... It's not genuine to dismiss the entire enchilada because YOU don't have it. In 5 years when all the crap is worked out and you eventually buy a system with ex…

People aren't dismissing it because they don't have it, they're dismissing it because the UX is terrible, it's too high maintenance, and the future of any individual solution uncertain.

In some ways it's like pre-iPhone mobile apps. They absolutely did exist, but were mostly too much hassle until they could be seamlessly downloaded from the App Store, sandboxed, and held to quality standards. We're still in the Symbian era of home automation.

(My wife worked at a home automation / security company about a decade ago. It had basically all the same problems back then too, but for a couple of years I had an internet-connected doorbell)

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