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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#391

Post by ksec »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

How can a languages and its ecosystem that is being used actively in many projects within ALL Fortune Global 500 company and most Fortune Global 2000 be dying?

When people say Ruby is dying, it would be more accurate to say they are not growing or they are shrinking. But given the size of Ruby marketshare of less than say ~2%. I would not really disagree with their notion.

But Java? I mean even from a Web Development prospective, given you mention Node, JS and Spring Framework, it is Far from dead.

And this is speaking as someone who likes Ruby and dislike Java.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#392

Post by pjmlp »

scarface74 wrote: post #287
pjmlp wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tie my horses to the platforms that customers pay for, instead of religious rants. I even use C, if that is what customers want to have done for them. Those Azure Linux VMs happen to run on Hyper-V hypervisors.

So it’s “religious” not to tie your career to a platform that the vendor and the market are both moving away from? If I chose my language and technology choices based on what I like and not marketability, I wouldn’t be going near React, Node or any of the cool kids stuff. I would rather not end up like old VB6 developers trying to find a job in 2008. I know a developer who worked in a company for 20 years got laid of…

Religion is the way you happen to defend your switch to . NET in every HN thread, even more than I bash C for, and from your story a certain uncertainty regarding what you got on the CV.

Selling services is so much more than tech stacks.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#393

Post by slightwinder »

dijit wrote: post #230
pron wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25. The reason this is so is that J…

I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Outside of complex projects headed by PhD compsci students (who used to learn java in uni but those courses are now taught in python) there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects. I can say that my company’s use of java is diminishing rapidly over the last 5 years too. No matter what you think of the technologi…

> there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects.

No surprise, Java never had a great standing in FOSS. Most FOSS in java originates from companys or research-projects. Which might be the reason why many data science FOSS-tools these days are written in java. Sometimes I even get the impression apache foundation is now an oracle-sweatshop because of all the java-software they have now.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#394

Post by watt »

Rattled wrote: post #339
pron wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25. The reason this is so is that J…

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

You simply need to download from https://adoptopenjdk.net/

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#395

Post by pjmlp »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #270
pjmlp wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only for Windows.

.NET Framework is only in Windows, so it's not blocking the porting of any existing library to core.

Why port to Core when many libraries still aren't there?

C++/CLI was just one example.

ODP.NET, EF 6 UI designers, WCF, WebForms, Forms/WPF UI designers [0], and plenty of component libraries are still not .NET Core compatible.

[0] - It remains to be seen if those designers will be shown at BUILD.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#396

Post by pjmlp »

scarface74 wrote: post #289
pjmlp wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What matters is that it brings money home. Maps uses Clojure, and is partially developed here in Berlin.

Until you are out there trying to find another job in two years and people start looking at you like an old VB6 or PowerBuilder developer.....

You seem really traumatized with whatever happened there regarding jobs.

No job is secure.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#397

Post by riffraff »

ajnin wrote: post #350
781 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France broke the EU deficit rules for over a decade. Everybody talked about it, but nobody acted. If a EU state refuses to do a thing, that's basically it. https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/france...

Germany's been breaking the EU's excessive trade surplus rules for more than ten years as well, and nobody even talks about it ! Go figure.

how does nobody talk about it? It's mentioned fairly regularly by commentators. Less than the italian deficit for sure, but still a well known fact.

If anything, few people mention the dutch trade surplus (I presume because the "netherland is evil!!" narrative is not as common as "german is evil!!").

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#398

Post by pjmlp »

sangnoir wrote: post #378
pjmlp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you going to replace the 99% OpenJDK developers that are on Oracle's paycheck as well?

Yes. The Java ecosystem is far larger than Oracle. Java can absolutely thrive if Oracle were to cease to exist tomorrow, or if everyone else[1] decides to move to a fork. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875

Again, where are those contributors?

Companies that just repackage Oracle's work don't count.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#399

Post by pjmlp »

scarface74 wrote: post #369
erik_seaberg wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lisp work isn't common, but the YC founders did pretty well. I hope you're aware HN is a Lisp testbed.

So just in case I want to work for the one anecdotal company that uses Lisp I’ll keep that in mind... But seeing that I like the optionality of working for any of the dozens of companies that have job openings continuously for JavaScript, C#, C, C++, and even Python, I think I’ll stick with those....

So better keep up with Java, given the amount of job offers across the globe.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#400

Post by pjmlp »

scarface74 wrote: post #366
coldtea wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were no "performance penalties" to speak of related to the GUI layer. IDE UI is not doing anything crazy to be performance bound. And I've (like millions of others) have used it in 2003-era PCs, with spinning platter HDs. What indeed was, were some penalties of the GC kicking in (unrelated to UI widgets). Still nothing a .NET app wouldn't have (and I've used SharpDevelop as well back in the day).

There is always a penalty for JNI. Also Visual Studio has never been written in C#. But why ever Eclipse was dog slow - it was.

Visual Studio is mostly written in C# since the WPF rewrite with VS2010.

You should learn the history of tools that you so agressively argue for.

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