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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#361

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

yumraj wrote: post #356
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s by design. The council is kept small and all permanent members are nuclear powers. The ability for Russia and the US to veto each other’s foreign policy spats and agreeing-to-disagree is the reason we’re still alive today.

There are more nuclear powers now, so shouldn't the security council permanent membership be expanded? We're not in 1945 anymore.

The _neu_-nuclear powers possess at most a few hundred warheads and lack true intercontinental delivery systems. They might kill a few million people but the damage will be localised.

All of the countries that could - and would (given the right kind of existential threat posed by another) kill a few _hundred million_ people in even a limited exchange are on the council.

There are other, non-nuclear states that could cause similar (To an extent it does come down to sincerity - I’m not concerned about India being a nuclear power despite it bordering Pakistan and PRC: I have faith in India’s democracy and stability to use their power responsibly (Kashmir is another discussion) - but I don’t extend that to DPRK who are clearly using it to avoid a Libya-type situation but who may end up using it anyway given the inherent instability of autocratic dynasties.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#362

Post by foobarian »

Ologn wrote: post #179
threeseed wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin runs on JVM and needs Java to even bootstrap. And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. Java as a language may be getting less developer interest but Scala, Clojure and Kotlin are as strong as ever.

Kotlin can run on the JVM and, Kotlin-on-the-JVM needs Java to even bootstrap. Also it seems that most of the interest for Kotlin comes from the JVM community and this aspect of the language. That is certainly the case for Android programmers any how. Backend JVM application server programmers use it as well. However Kotlin can be targeted to other platforms as well. Kotlin can target JavaScript ( https://kotlinlang.…

To me two things about Kotlin stand out over all other Java alternatives: 1) fantastic IDE support and 2) it does not add too much rope to hang oneself with (see re: Scala).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#363

Post by scarface74 »

coldtea wrote: post #358
scarface74 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LINQ itself is a big deal because of what it enables. A simple LINQ expression can be passed around an translated on the fly by various providers. The same expressions can be translated to Sql, Mongo, regular IL, etc. And no LINQ isn’t just syntax. Last time I checked neither SmallTalk or Haskell are taking the world by storm... Haven’t Java proponents been claiming Java was going to be fast for over two decades?

> A simple LINQ expression can be passed around an translated on the fly by various providers. The same expressions can be translated to Sql, Mongo, regular IL, etc. The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax…

The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax. Heck, LISPs have

Okay so where is it? What language besides some .Net based languages allows me to take the same query expression and have it interpreted differently based on the provider and allows me to switch out an RDMS or Mongo for example without changing the calling code?half a century ago I wasn’t even born (about 5 years later). Saying Lisp did it 50 years ago is about like Mac users bragging in 2019 that they had a GUI before PCs.

As far as LISP, what are the job opportunities like in 2019?

Yes, they only made a dent with the smarter developers.

Can I make money with those languages?

Java has been fast for over 15 years now, so not sure what you're getting at here. Faster than C# as well, so there's that too.

Benchmarks?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#364

Post by cutler »

cesarb wrote: post #186
cmiles74 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.

> There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?

If you're looking to get into C# 8.0 you're out of luck if using OS X. Visual Studio 2019 for Mac offers .Net Core 3.0 as an option if you have it installed but Mono hasn't caught up with C# 8.0 so isn't available. So much for cross-platform development - it seems OS X is still an afterthought.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#365

Post by erik_seaberg »

scarface74 wrote: post #363
coldtea wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A simple LINQ expression can be passed around an translated on the fly by various providers. The same expressions can be translated to Sql, Mongo, regular IL, etc. The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax…

The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax. Heck, LISPs have Okay so where is it? What language besides some .Net based languages allows me to take the same query expression and have it interpreted differentl…

Lisp work isn't common, but the YC founders did pretty well. I hope you're aware HN is a Lisp testbed.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#366

Post by scarface74 »

coldtea wrote: post #360
scarface74 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I guess neither were the performance penalties of both Java and the Interop layer compared to native C++ code?

There were no "performance penalties" to speak of related to the GUI layer. IDE UI is not doing anything crazy to be performance bound. And I've (like millions of others) have used it in 2003-era PCs, with spinning platter HDs. What indeed was, were some penalties of the GC kicking in (unrelated to UI widgets). Still nothing a .NET app wouldn't have (and I've used SharpDevelop as well back in the day).

There is always a penalty for JNI. Also Visual Studio has never been written in C#. But why ever Eclipse was dog slow - it was.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#367

Post by lpghatguy »

oaiey wrote: post #292
realusername wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities? The same way as any other language? With audits? I don't get your comment.

To write the same functionality I need 10x the packages (from 9x vendors) in JavaScript compared to a Java/.NET ecosystems. The infamous left-pad packages is a sample for something found in the base class libraries of the other languages. And this does not only stand true for vulnerability analysis but also for other analyze jobs like for licenses or gdpr compliance. The amount of work is just higher with the amount…

I think the net amount of code ends up being pretty much the same, it's just spread over several repositories/sources/owners. That does mean it's more difficult without tooling to trawl through, but it's not like it's an order of magnitude or anything.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#368

Post by DonHopkins »

pjmlp wrote: post #267
jayd16 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have working (but maybe not production ready) AOT and JIT LLVM targets for .NET Core. Where can Java go that C# can't?

Mainframes, factory automation platforms, embedded hardware for M2M communication, phone centrals like the ones from Cisco, Bluray Players, electricity meeters with network capabilities like those from Gemalto, car infotainment systems, smart cards, copiers like those from Xerox and Ricoh,military equipments, ... And plenty more. It is not that is impossible to have them as .NET deployment target, just that right now…

Maybe at the moment, but the one place that Java isn't going, simply because Oracle owns it, is the FUTURE.

Now Cobol, there's a much better bet, because Oracle can't sabotage it and audit everyone using it to make a few bars of silver!

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/cobol-forever-1a49f7d28a39

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#369

Post by scarface74 »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #365
scarface74 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax. Heck, LISPs have Okay so where is it? What language besides some .Net based languages allows me to take the same query expression and have it interpreted differentl…

Lisp work isn't common, but the YC founders did pretty well. I hope you're aware HN is a Lisp testbed.

So just in case I want to work for the one anecdotal company that uses Lisp I’ll keep that in mind...

But seeing that I like the optionality of working for any of the dozens of companies that have job openings continuously for JavaScript, C#, C, C++, and even Python, I think I’ll stick with those....

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#370

Post by yumraj »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #361
yumraj wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more nuclear powers now, so shouldn't the security council permanent membership be expanded? We're not in 1945 anymore.

The _neu_-nuclear powers possess at most a few hundred warheads and lack true intercontinental delivery systems. They might kill a few million people but the damage will be localised. All of the countries that could - and would (given the right kind of existential threat posed by another) kill a few _hundred million_ people in even a limited exchange are on the council. There are other, non-nuclear states that could…

I obviously didn't mean all. India, Japan, Germany and perhaps a couple of others, such as South Africa and Brazil, deserve to have permanent status to have a more even security council.

It's more an economic issue than a nuclear issue IMO. And, I think the veto should be done away with.

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