Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

propublica.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 283 posts

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#221

Post by projektfu »

akarma wrote: post #173
godelski wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? My response is: >Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems (in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 befo…

Stolen from Twitter [1]: "Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes. Me: How much do I owe? Gov’t: You have to figure that out. Me: I just pay what I want? Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that number too. Me: What if I get it wrong? Gov’t: You go to prison" [1] https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/11181414550616719...

I don't think the IRS sends people to prison for filing incorrectly. There's a difference between misreading the instructions and “willfully [making and subscribing] any return, statement, or other document, which contains or is verified by a written declaration that is made under the penalties of perjury, and which he does not believe to be true and correct as to every material matter.”

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#222

Post by int_19h »

vonmoltke wrote: post #214
Noughmad wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, another thing that the richest country in the world can't afford, despite the fact that just about every other country can do it.

First off, I never said anything about the US not being able to afford it. I said the IRS can't do it with their current resources. Big difference. Second, the IRS processed 247.8M total returns[1] and 3.59B supporting documents[2] in 2017. While I think the IRS could do a better job (like, well, the entire rest of the US federal government), what other tax system processes anything near that volume? Also, I'm not bu…

How about "every other developed country"?

The volume doesn't really matter, because it scales linearly with population - a larger country just needs more bureaucrats, but it can afford them because it also collects more taxes from more people. There's nothing unique in that regard in US.

But if you want something in the same ballpark, we can look at, say, Russia (population of 150 million), or even at Nigeria (200 million).

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#223

Post by low_key »

It's bad even when it stays free. Massachusetts has a tax site (which seems to be created and run by Intuit) which you can use to file for free. It, however, has been built purposefully to make it much, much more difficult to use than the paid version (that they push hard when you file your federal taxes with TurboTax).

The free version does very little error checking prior to submission. It won't even check for things like empty fields that are required for everyone (e.g. the field for your birthday on the state health care form).

The state paid for the free version with tax money and it lacks fundamental usability.

  * Doesn't perform basic validation
  * Doesn't calculate fields that can be automatically calculated (though there is a button you can press which will fill some of them)
  * Takes 24-48 hours for "processing" after submission before you are notified of acceptance.  In actuality, this tended to be 4-15 hours, but still... it's just doing basic validation.  I got rejections for empty fields and miscalculated fields (ones that I shouldn't even have to enter at all.)
  * Reports errors in a obscure manner, which makes it a chore to determine what is wrong (violates "Business Rule F1-1025", etc.)
  * Amounts to an electronic version of the paper form, where it only really does exactly what you put on it... add incorrectly: won't be detected, skip a line: no problem
  * I could go on, but you get the idea
If you use the paid product that is available from the same company (Intuit), it will handle all of the above automatically. So really we have is a company that has made a crippled version of software they are already selling. They double-dip with a lot of people this way and they don't compromise sales on the paid product. If you wait until the last day to file using the free site, you are unlikely to get it accepted in time since you won't have a second chance for submission.

The product built for the state could just be a really poorly written and managed contract, but knowing the way Intuit behaves generally, I doubt that is all that's going on.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#224

Post by int_19h »

harryh wrote: post #145
username223 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government currently takes in about $1.7 trillion in individual income taxes per year, so even spending $500 million to pre-fill forms would be almost nothing (0.03%). Heck, that's less than a useless aircraft carrier or a Facebook consent decree violation. The IRS already has W-2s and 1099s, which cover ordinary pay and retirement investments, and enough money has probably been automatically withheld already.…

For the record, the IRS (in partnership with various tax companies) already providers for free filing for people making less than 66k/year. https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f...

The whole point of doing it this way - via the tax companies' own services - is to make it an advertisement for those companies, so that once somebody starts earning more, they would preferentially pick them. It's also a form of mild lock-in, since already having their return history etc there makes filing that much easier, creating an incentive to pay.

In the meantime, the same lobbyists who created this scheme are trying to prohibit IRS from developing its own free filing system:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#225

Post by nv-vn »

JohnFen wrote: post #89
testvox wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because corporations are just groups of people operating as one legal entity as is required for many ventures which would be too expensive or risky for one person to take on by themselves. Do you think corporations like the New York Times should not have freedom of speech? Do you think the government should be able to arbitrary power against corporations like Planned Parenthood? Should governments have arbitrary powe…

> Because corporations are just groups of people operating as one legal entity A corporate entity has rights and powers that ordinary people do not, so they are more than "just groups of people". They are independent entities all their own. Further, they can only exist because the government grants them that privilege, and the government can technically place any restrictions they like on them. In the past, the gover…

Curious as to what extra rights you believe they have?

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#226

Post by aeturnum »

JohnFen wrote: post #51
aeturnum wrote: post #33

I encountered this with H&R block when I had a particularly complex tax situation a few years back (had worked as a contractor for several corporate entities and also had the tail end of full time work plus investment income). H&R block quoted me 3-4 rates, insisting I pay them more money at each step to finish the process. I realize it's hard because the number of complications that can come up in filing taxes is di…

If your taxes are complex enough to warrant having a tax preparer handle them for you, I recommend avoiding H&R Block. Instead, ask your colleagues, friends, and family for recommendations for an independent tax preparer rather than a chain.

Yes, after that experience I've found a single proprietorship that I'm quite happy with.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#227

Post by kyrieeschaton »

gmiller123456 wrote: post #181
turc1656 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, but there's more than just itemization that can be done.

Agree, but there's more than just itemization that can be done. Cool. Like what?

Capital losses, correcting of cost basis for employee stock purchase program shares, handling multi-state income...

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#228

Post by int_19h »

ahallock wrote: post #162
rayvd wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine how horrible a single captive solution from the IRS would be compared to one spawned by the competitive marketplace. Now why our tax code needs to be so complex that it requires software like Turbo Tax is certainly a fair question.

Remember the healthcare.gov debacle? TurboTax isn't that much and it saves time and headache. People think in binary of free vs not-free while not considering the cost of time.

It "saves" time that is taken away from you by intentionally complicated tax code and filing procedures, that are pushed by lobbyists hired by the same company that sells you TurboTax.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#229

Post by avel »

throwaway44562 wrote: post #186
scrooched_moose wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CreditKarma is 100% free for everything. I've used them the last two years without issue, although they dramatically improved the service this last year. It was a little rough year 1.

CreditKarma requires a non VOIP number before you can sign up for their tax app.

Hm, I've used my Google Voice number without a problem.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#230

Post by samename »

scrooched_moose wrote: post #88
untog wrote: post #11

They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is free, state is $15: https://www.freetaxusa.com/ Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund. The last straw with…

CreditKarma is 100% free for everything. I've used them the last two years without issue, although they dramatically improved the service this last year. It was a little rough year 1.

Unfortunately Credit Karma doesn't let you delete you account; you can deactivate, but your data stays with them for at least two more years.
Post reply on HN