Can also recommend this paper for more information on how ‘Dark patterns’ work:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186
TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
211–220 of 283 posts
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used to use TurboTax and painstakingly enter everything imaginable and read everything to make sure I wasn't missing anything and would consistently get back around $4,500 to $5,000 in total between Federal and state. Using him, we got back $6,500 total. Also, with the Trump tax changes taking effect, a bunch of coworkers of mine said they got screwed and got back like half of what they used to get back. A few said…
Wow, does he provide any explanation of the delta between the two returns? Side by side comparison of what’s being filed? I ask because I once did go to a CPA, after first filling out the forms myself. The tax bill he computed was identical to what I came up with, so I concluded he provided no value over doing it myself!
He just files for us so no side by side because I'm not going to do it in tandem to compare because that's what his job is. But I think for us the reason is that he plans in advance what we should be doing during the year to minimize the tax impact on the business side of things - i.e. do this now, do that later, and do that other thing next year, take this disbursement now, pay this estimated tax, write off that loss now, etc. So I think it's more that the critical stuff is done throughout the year rather than just doing a post-mortem - proactive rather than reactive.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used to use TurboTax and painstakingly enter everything imaginable and read everything to make sure I wasn't missing anything and would consistently get back around $4,500 to $5,000 in total between Federal and state. Using him, we got back $6,500 total. Also, with the Trump tax changes taking effect, a bunch of coworkers of mine said they got screwed and got back like half of what they used to get back. A few said…
Comparing the refund amount isn't very informative. Effective tax rate or dollars paid is a better comparison, especially in years like this one where the witholding tables got kinda weird so lots of people over/underpaid their taxes over the course of the year.
Good point. I took a look. He appears to be 0.5% more effective than me doing it myself with software. Doesn't sound like much, but it's far more than the $400 or so we would normally be paying for this.
EDIT - 0.5% meaning my effective tax rate is 0.5% lower.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I think the IRS should do this, it would require a lot of additional work and resources, as well as a reshuffling of filing deadlines throughout the system. The IRS currently does not have all the information it needs to prefill forms, and inly has the resources to review a fraction of the 140M+ returns filed each year. I don't know why so many people in this site seem to think this is a trivial thing for the I…
So, another thing that the richest country in the world can't afford, despite the fact that just about every other country can do it.
First off, I never said anything about the US not being able to afford it. I said the IRS can't do it with their current resources. Big difference.
Second, the IRS processed 247.8M total returns[1] and 3.59B supporting documents[2] in 2017. While I think the IRS could do a better job (like, well, the entire rest of the US federal government), what other tax system processes anything near that volume?
Also, I'm not buying "just about every other country". Not even close. For starters, I find it hard to believe that more than a handful of African countries manage to do it.
[1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p6292.pdf, page (3)
[2] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p6961.pdf, page (4)
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a bit more complicated than that. For example, rental income and capital gains on sales of property or owned items don't typically have reported forms associated with them. But for probably 90% of tax filers, the IRS should already have everything it needs and know the exact amount owed.
That's fair, but I think if it works in 90% of cases that's a huge win. And it seems like it'd be pretty easy to close that gap (with multiple solution methods).
100% agree. A simple "here's what we think you owe" postcard for 90% of people and a "we think you might have unreported income based on your bank transactions - please fill out a full 1040" for the other 10% would be a massive improvement over today's system.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just tried it again: > It looks like you need to pay first to instantly access your TurboTax returns > For instructions on how to access your returns, click help in the upper right hand corner of your screen and type “Prior Year Return” into the search box and when I do that: > To access your prior year return before you file, you have to: > Be in an upgraded version of TurboTax (or add PLUS to TurboTax Free Edition)…
It’s especially egregious since the IRS will give you a transcript for free.
TurboTax will also give you the complete return free... if you download it right after you file it.
(This sort of thing is why it's a good idea to do just that regardless of which service you're using.)
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stolen from Twitter [1]: "Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes. Me: How much do I owe? Gov’t: You have to figure that out. Me: I just pay what I want? Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that number too. Me: What if I get it wrong? Gov’t: You go to prison" [1] https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/11181414550616719...
You realize that only a portion of people get audited right? Sure, your government could calculate everyone's taxes but I'm guessing those taxes would need to go up...
The government does exactly that for the majority of tax residents in most countries in the world. US, with its Byzantine tax return system, is an outlier.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
Society isn't the government, though. This conflation is a nice trick when arguing, I'll give you that.
Government is elected by society to represent. Yes governments are flawed and inefficient and corrupt at times, but generally speaking governments do an acceptable job at providing basic services to most people. There's countless examples of them fucking up but they get more right than wrong.
> Government is elected by society to represent.
Some people are selected by some other people, neither representative of society as a whole.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
A few years ago my finance class had a homework assignment which was to calculate the interest rate you were paying for this "service". It was a good assignment, because there is no "right" answer, because it depends how you define certain values, but all the figures came back with this "service" is like a loan with a 40-80% interest rate.
Sure, that's a pretty high interest rate. If you have the liquidity, you definitely should pay upfront. But it's conceivable that for some (small) segment of the population, that loan is worth it. Payday loans are a similar situation, it seems exploitative to many/most people. But those people who think it's exploitative are the ones who don't need the service in the first place. If you can avoid it, you should never…
It's absurd to compare a simple interest rate to an compounding interest rate on revolving credit.
Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gotta pass out special privileges. With complexity comes opportunity.
One of the most complexity inducing areas of the tax code, The Alternative Minimum Tax, has a lot more to do with taxing certain people extra than handing out any special privileges. That and form 8960 (Net Investment Income Tax Individuals, Estates, and Trusts) are both direct contradictions to you assertion.
The fact that we still tax capital gains way lower than personal income should already tell you volumes about who has special privileges in the tax code.