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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#111

Post by JonnieCache »

VMG wrote: post #57
btilly wrote: post #5

Ah, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.

But how do you explain this then? > When strippers were hired to mix with people at the Saturday night event everyone attended, that made everyone uncomfortable I suspect that there is some level of ignorance and even acceptance in the community

Yeah. Hiring strippers to hang out at a dev conference is off-the-scale creepy. I am a 23yr old male and I would run a mile if I saw that. Partly because I have moral disagreements but mostly because I can forsee no way in which the interactions happening in such an environment, a big room full of drunk hackers and strippers, could be anything better than awkward and embarrassing to the point of delirium. Worst case, well that doesn't need to be said.

On no planet is it anywhere near appropriate. Jobs may as well crack a load of miscarriage/rape gags during his next keynote, thats on the same level IMO.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#112

Post by maco »

jedbrown wrote: post #97
robg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flirting isn't professional when it's at an after hours party? How else should one signal that they're available and interested?

She's married, I don't think her flirting was intended as a sign of availability.

Only married in the "divorce proceedings take a while" sense.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#114

Post by jdp23 »

JonnieCache wrote: post #107
jdp23 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of talk about this in the hacker world. The reality is that some kinds of "different" are seen as just fine, and others have major social consequences. If you're a guy, try wearing hot pink jeans and shoes, a lavender femme-looking unisex top, and nail polish to a tech conference and see how the other guys react. It's eye-opening.

Nobody is going to react well to hot pink jeans, regardless of their genital category.

To the contrary. Most people react pretty darn well in most situations. Many techie guys seem to have a problem though.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#115

Post by jdp23 »

gyardley wrote: post #89

The gender imbalance at open source conferences means that the small proportion of men throughout society that harass women have a much smaller pool of targets to choose from. The result - while open-source conferences might have the same amount of harassment per male attendee as any other conference, the percentage of female attendees affected by it is much higher. This creates dramatically different perceptions. As…

Excellent point!

Guys confronting sexual harassers is a big part of the solution, and so is an anti-harassment policy is one good part of a solution. More women will come to conferences if it's not so likely they'll be harrassed.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#116

Post by cosgroveb »

gyardley wrote: post #89

The gender imbalance at open source conferences means that the small proportion of men throughout society that harass women have a much smaller pool of targets to choose from. The result - while open-source conferences might have the same amount of harassment per male attendee as any other conference, the percentage of female attendees affected by it is much higher. This creates dramatically different perceptions. As…

Or perhaps instead of banning beer they should adopt non-harassment policies which are enforced and make sure that they respond to complaints swiftly?

Beer doesn't make people creeps... Their personalities do.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#117

Post by maco »

robryan wrote: post #75

An interesting question would be if those men which did the wrong thing were regulars to these conferences or new to the scene? From similar things I have been to I just couldn't imagine a community in which the core regulars would have anyone doing these kinds of things.

I'm Mackenzie in the article. The guy who made the comment about why someone else was agreeing with me...he wasn't new. I don't know about the guy who grabbed/kissed me.

Going a little broader in the tech field... I know of some people in the hacking/security community who are...well, when you're new to the scene, you're warned about them. I can only think of one guy I was warned about, but he's well known. I can think of two others I was told new guys to the scene (particularly if fairly young) should be warned about, and those two are around-since-phreaking-days levels of established and well known. Being icky doesn't mean ostracism.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#118

Post by callahad »

idm wrote: post #108
acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but the…

Are you perhaps thinking of Ian Bicking's "Topics of Interest" talk [0] from PyCon 2009? It definitely veered into the uncomfortable, but there was some reasonable handling of the situation during the talk, IIRC, and was definitely a catalyst in the PSF adopting a formal diversity statement [1] and trying to be encourage inclusivity in the community.

[0]: http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/76/

[1]: http://www.python.org/community/diversity/

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#119

Post by matwood »

cturner wrote: post #38
lhnn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was commenting as much on the recent deluge of 'sexism in tech is rampant' threads on HN as I was commenting on the article. I was emphasizing that even as someone now jaded by such complaints, I find this to be a valid article. I also comment on how inappropriate groping a woman is; I would consider my entire 3rd and 4th lines to be expressing frustration at immature male actions. I consider all sides of an argume…

In your original post you said it was a human problem. Among social animals, humans are unusually effective at avoiding being pushed around by selfish males, probably due to communication. So I think it's good to talk about it. If more people recognise the problem then they're more likely to intervene next time they see it happen, and to marginalise troublemakers. They're good outcomes.

probably due to communication

This is key at all times, not just in a post hoc analysis. If a guy and girl are flirting and one takes it too far some of the responsibility does fall on the other to immediately let them know. When this communication is ignored is when there is a problem.

For example, I was out with friends one time at a club and was talking/flirting with a couple different girls. At one point in the night one girl simply grabbed my crotch. She was obviously intoxicated, but once I told her that wasn't very cool she apologized and went on her way. We had been flirting for most of the night, but any girl who does that and wants to hook up the first night I meet them isn't a girl I want to hang out with.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#120

Post by MoreMoschops »

lhnn wrote: post #10

I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field. Yes, ladies, you will be hit on a lot at a conference filled with mostly guys. You are an attractive minority. Now, to the point: --- There is no excuse for physical assault. I can even almost excuse a guy going in for a peck, but grab-ass and worse are not cool. If you're going to proposition a girl, do it with your wits and your words, not a f…

"I get tired of women complaining about sexism in the startup/tech field."

Cry me a river. Would you prefer people just shut up about it?

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