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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#41

Post by follower »

masterponomo wrote: post #25

I'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.

> but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks.

If this is the case, why do these incidents keep happening?

I guess it comes back to the cliched "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good [people] do nothing".

And having a stated policy in place is a pro-active way to demonstrate "Hey, in case you were wondering, this kind of behaviour's not okay and this is how we'll deal with it".

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#42

Post by follower »

wyclif wrote: post #8
StudyAnimal wrote: post #2

That reminds me, what happened with the Florian Leibert scandal? Any word from him since the event?

What happened is that she called the Atlanta police, who found no cause to charge him. End of story.

[Citation needed.]

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#43

Post by timelinex »

As a general rule: Don't shit where you eat. Some of the incident she describe are legit sexual harassment and others are a male trying to pick up a lady. Don't do that ever where you work or have important business to attend[your technique maybe lacking].

I Genuinely think this is not really a Geek problem. There is statistically large number of people with sexual deviation. For instance, it is estimated that between 3-9% of the population are Pedophiles[1]. At a conference with about 100 people there maybe 3 persons there with a sexual deviation. But it only takes one of those guys to approach all the women in the conference and spoil the whole thing for all of us.

My suggestion is if ever you were to encounter a situation of sexual assault report it immediately to the police[not the conference organizer]. I don't want that guy who hits ladies on the bum to be walking around freely in society. He would not be operating at Conferences alone.

As a side note to how important it's to report these things:"nonincestuous pedophiles who molest boys had committed an average of 282 offenses against 150 victims"[1]. As I said previously, just one deviant can crash the party for a whole lot of people.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child...

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#44

Post by geedee77 »

lhnn wrote: post #31
cturner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you agree with the points, but put your tiredness down to the complaints of the affected women. Of the things on offer, that's an odd thing to put your frustration down to. I think it would be better to be tired of the guys who act like jerks and ruin things for everyone else.

I was commenting as much on the recent deluge of 'sexism in tech is rampant' threads on HN as I was commenting on the article. I was emphasizing that even as someone now jaded by such complaints, I find this to be a valid article. I also comment on how inappropriate groping a woman is; I would consider my entire 3rd and 4th lines to be expressing frustration at immature male actions. I consider all sides of an argume…

I certainly wouldn't presume to berate you for your opinion, and it's good to see someone who considers both sides to an argument, but I think we do need to keep hearing about these things otherwise we get to the point where we assume it's not happening when it clearly is.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#45

Post by robg »

follower wrote: post #41
masterponomo wrote: post #25

I'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.

> but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If this is the case, why do these incidents keep happening? I guess it comes back to the cliched "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good [people] do nothing". And having a stated policy in place is a pro-active way to demonstrate "Hey, in case you were wondering, this kind of behaviour's not okay and this is how we'll deal with it".

If this is the case, why do these incidents keep happening?

Because as a culture we don't know how to talk about these things - when they happen and when we see and hear about them. And when TV shows - like Freaks and Geeks - come along and try, they're canceled after one season.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#46

Post by follower »

theophani wrote: post #18

I've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something similar to a man at a needlepoint conference. Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing…

> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing.

FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender.

And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#47

Post by kahawe »

robg wrote: post #28
btilly wrote: post #5

Ah, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion. Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debu…

I agree with you. It should be much more accepted and encouraged to seek therapy or coaching when suffering from a strong lack of social skills, being very lonely or even from social anxiety or depressions.

Nobody should have to carry those hurt feelings around all the time - this would also contribute a little bit to a better world ultimately.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#48

Post by follower »

JonnieCache wrote: post #40
follower wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like people need to be more willing to stand up for themselves and their friends Potentially "being different" in addition to standing up and out can be a daunting prospect. There's a lot of perceived social risk in such situations.

>Potentially "being different" in addition to standing up and out can be a daunting prospect. This is laughable considering how much talk there is in the hacker world of defying convention, challenging conventional wisdom, standing out from the crowd, changing the world and associated platitudes.

Maybe you're a lot more confident in social situations than I am then. :)

I don't think the hacker community is any more welcoming of dissenting opinions than the world at large. Standing out is a good way to get flamed. Or be told that one's opinion is "laughable". :)

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#49

Post by follower »

ErrantX wrote: post #9
geedee77 wrote: post #7

I think this is a good article and a great reminder to us all about the underside to the world. I do want to say, though, that the 'men' (and they are only described as such due to their gender) in this story are a very small minority that you would find in any group of people. I'm not so naive to say that sexism doesn't exist in our industry, because it clearly does, but I would say that the vast majority of people…

Indeed. In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to pull of these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair one). But because the industry is so female light a (relatively speaking) large proportion of the women in it have been propositioned or assaulted by the more forward members of the group.

> In fact that stereotypical geek has, I think, never been the one to pull of these sorts of overt sexual advances (so the link is/was an unfair one).

But if the people at these conferences aren't "stereotypical geeks" then who are they?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#50

Post by sili »

rb2k_ wrote: post #33

What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…

On the other side, the article mentions the double bind women are in: they are generally treated as "non-technical" and so need to use tricks to get others to pay attention to what they are saying, yet these trick that end up being interpreted as flirting and sexual advances.
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