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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#81

Post by yummyfajitas »

robg wrote: post #77
sp332 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

A party isn't a "sexualized environment". An orgy is. Let's be perfectly clear that there's a huge difference between the two. People go to parties for all sorts of reasons. Look guys, women flirt to signal interest. You can never assume anything more than that is intended. It's not fair to them and you'll look foolish (or worse) if you go too fast.

In that case, the author of the article is also wrong. There are no public sex acts, so open source conferences are similarly not sexualized environments.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#82

Post by kolektiv »

ErrantX wrote: post #78
kolektiv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.

Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.

To clarify, if you're flirting with someone, yes they may flirt back and perhaps "make a pass" at you. In this case however, she was not flirting with this guy. Just because someone is flirting with other people, does not make them open to flirting with you. If they wanted to be flirting with you, they would be already.

Someone being flirtatious with others is not a green light for you to make a pass. Not if they're not flirting with you. Even then, there's still plenty of nuance and context which would determine whether that's acceptable.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#83

Post by robg »

kahawe wrote: post #47
robg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion. Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debu…

I agree with you. It should be much more accepted and encouraged to seek therapy or coaching when suffering from a strong lack of social skills, being very lonely or even from social anxiety or depressions. Nobody should have to carry those hurt feelings around all the time - this would also contribute a little bit to a better world ultimately.

Therapy will always seem extreme even as clinical anxiety disorders affect 40 million Americans. That's why less than 2 million of those will get adequate treatment.

Guys, be good friends and ask for advice. Talk about dating and your difficulties. Your friends in relationships can really help. Just avoid the guys who speak badly of women. They're also a big part of the problem.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#84

Post by gacba »

theophani wrote: post #18

I've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something similar to a man at a needlepoint conference. Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing…

The fact you personally didn't receive any unwanted advances is not proof that they never happen.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#85

Post by jdp23 »

JonnieCache wrote: post #40
follower wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like people need to be more willing to stand up for themselves and their friends Potentially "being different" in addition to standing up and out can be a daunting prospect. There's a lot of perceived social risk in such situations.

>Potentially "being different" in addition to standing up and out can be a daunting prospect. This is laughable considering how much talk there is in the hacker world of defying convention, challenging conventional wisdom, standing out from the crowd, changing the world and associated platitudes.

There's a lot of talk about this in the hacker world. The reality is that some kinds of "different" are seen as just fine, and others have major social consequences.

If you're a guy, try wearing hot pink jeans and shoes, a lavender femme-looking unisex top, and nail polish to a tech conference and see how the other guys react. It's eye-opening.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#86

Post by ErrantX »

kolektiv wrote: post #82
ErrantX wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.

To clarify, if you're flirting with someone, yes they may flirt back and perhaps "make a pass" at you. In this case however, she was not flirting with this guy. Just because someone is flirting with other people, does not make them open to flirting with you. If they wanted to be flirting with you, they would be already. Someone being flirtatious with others is not a green light for you to make a pass. Not if they're…

Oh I agree.

In this case he was in the wrong all the way; but you could put down everything up to the kiss as misguided, or confused or as simply idiotic behaviour. Guys get funny around flirty girls and make stupid choices.

But action after the clear rebuff is a different matter (and this was sorta the point I was trying to make but it got a bit bogged down).

(on re-reading, in this case, I'd only excuse the bit up to the kiss in this case, he seems to have forced the kiss instead of just going for it [if that follows]).

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#88

Post by guylhem »

robg wrote: post #28
btilly wrote: post #5

Ah, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.

A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem. This seems like the most important point. Moreover, it's critical that all men who see and hear of such things work to stomp them out. If individuals don't have the social skills on how to woo, it's a topic for personal discussion. Dating isn't hard if basic respect is the first item to be debu…

here a copy of an email I sent after reading that article. It's not only guys hitting girl, it can take may other forms. The problem is, being mostly outcasts, we lean to tolerate untolerable behaviour.

--

Following an HN link, I read your article today on LWN http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/ and it rang a bell. There's an event I remember from a conference in LSM around 2002 IIRC in Bordeaux, France where I was part of the org team and giving a couple of conferences. It is way more social than most other conferences I attended at that time - in fact, it's now the only conference I keep attending. Everyone is housed on university dorms, the conferences are given in a university, and many social events occur during the conference.

There's a big "dinner night" which I can only compare to the dinners in Harry Potter - long lines of tables, everyone seated to eat but also demoing some technical stuff time to time.

Anyway, that year the dinner was preceded by a cocktail. We were all enjoying french wine and appetizers, when a guy grabbed a bottle from the table next to which we were standing and started running around with the bottle in his hands. I thought this was a playful way to show its running skills, and back then since I enjoyed running too, I started running after him, caught him and started laughting. When I asked him as a prize for my win, with a smile and in a non threatening way, to share the bottle with the rest of us, he suddently turned weird. There was 2 or 3 people around, and he started telling about us about growing in Illinois, having had bullet wounds, knowing how to defend himself, and finally threatening violence.

It was so weird. I didn't know what to do at that time. I let it slip over as the actions of some socially awkward guy. Now if something similar was ever to happen again, after reading your paper I would act very differently - including clearly stating that he should apologize, that such behaviour is not acceptable, and if he thought he could get away with it, as part of the organisation team I would do my best to have him expelled from the conference at once - not the next morning, but right now. And if that could not be made to work with the rest of the team, I would call the police and them deal with him.

It did strike me as odd, because I've been attending that conference since the beginning, 10 years ago, and never noticed something like that again. I went to the OSCON, Linux World and various others I can't remember ATM, in north and south america, but this is the only example I have.

Yet I'm sure the guy had the potential to scare away many other guests. I am forwarding this message to the organizers , along with a link to your original article to make sure a policy get enacted against unacceptable behaviour by guests.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#89

Post by gyardley »

The gender imbalance at open source conferences means that the small proportion of men throughout society that harass women have a much smaller pool of targets to choose from.

The result - while open-source conferences might have the same amount of harassment per male attendee as any other conference, the percentage of female attendees affected by it is much higher.

This creates dramatically different perceptions. As a male, I haven't seen any more sexual harassment at tech conferences than I have at academic conferences on Russian history, so it doesn't feel like there's much of a problem. But from the female perspective, the situation looks like an epidemic.

I have no solution to this unfortunate situation. Perhaps open source conferences should ban alcohol, so everyone can stay properly inhibited. This hardly seems fair to those of us who enjoy having a beer and can do it without molesting others, but a minor inconvenience to the majority is usually acceptable when it prevents a devastating experience for a minority.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#90

Post by moeffju »

mahmud wrote: post #15
trevi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the way who really uses fora as the plural of forum? To me it seems at best arbitrary, at worst pretentious.

Pretension and grammar-Nazism are the virii of online communication.

Wait, you mean viruses? :)
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