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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#71

Post by sp332 »

achompas wrote: post #52
rb2k_ wrote: post #33

What annoys me is that the article talks about a "problem of a sexualized environment", but the [post]( http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ ) that is being refered to describes things like this: > I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. [...] I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length…

Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites t…

Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#72

Post by corbet »

follower wrote: post #3

While I'm pleased to see this article on HN, is it appropriate to use a "subscriber link" in a public forum like HN?

As long as the posting of subscriber links in places like this is occasional, I believe it serves as good marketing for LWN - indeed, every now and then, I even do it myself. We just hope that people realize that we run nine feature articles every week, all of which are instantly accessible to LWN subscribers.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#73

Post by dwmw2 »

kolektiv wrote: post #61
ErrantX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... and there was not necessarily anything wrong with making a pass at her (i.e. taking her aside and going for a kiss etc, although it's hardly well executed it is harmless and she clearly views it that way) But when rebuffed you don't then feel her up . There is a line to be crossed; she brought the passes on herself to be sure, but not the assault. (EDIT: the replies to this make it clear my point got a bit twi…

Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.

Life would be so much easier if that were always true.

But sometimes, the first real move in a relationship is a kiss, which comes fairly much out of the blue.

Context is everything.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#74

Post by robg »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #64
robg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flirting isn't professional when it's at an after hours party? How else should one signal that they're available and interested?

Signalling such things is, in fact, not professional. Of course, neither are most after-hours parties...

By definition, after hours parties are not professional. That's why they're after hours and parties.

If women can't flirt in those environs, we're doomed as a species. Unless you want to go trolling at dance clubs?

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#75

Post by robryan »

An interesting question would be if those men which did the wrong thing were regulars to these conferences or new to the scene? From similar things I have been to I just couldn't imagine a community in which the core regulars would have anyone doing these kinds of things.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#76

Post by achompas »

sp332 wrote: post #71
achompas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites t…

Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

Upvote for catching this, and I'm editing my post to be clearer, but: there's a world of difference between harmless flirting and attending a conference where the company hires strippers.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#77

Post by robg »

sp332 wrote: post #71
achompas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment blames the victim. Don't do this. Whether it's a professional networking event or a fun, crazy, not-so-professional party, no one should be treated in this manner. No matter her (or his) behavior or the atmosphere. Period. Also, she mentioned "sitting on laps" because there was no room in the party, and people have a right to flirt without being, uh, sexually molested. Finally, the linked article cites t…

Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

A party isn't a "sexualized environment". An orgy is. Let's be perfectly clear that there's a huge difference between the two. People go to parties for all sorts of reasons.

Look guys, women flirt to signal interest. You can never assume anything more than that is intended. It's not fair to them and you'll look foolish (or worse) if you go too fast.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#78

Post by ErrantX »

kolektiv wrote: post #61
ErrantX wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... and there was not necessarily anything wrong with making a pass at her (i.e. taking her aside and going for a kiss etc, although it's hardly well executed it is harmless and she clearly views it that way) But when rebuffed you don't then feel her up . There is a line to be crossed; she brought the passes on herself to be sure, but not the assault. (EDIT: the replies to this make it clear my point got a bit twi…

Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.

Brought the passes on herself?

Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim.

If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her.

Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#79

Post by robg »

achompas wrote: post #76
sp332 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on, GP is addressing a different issue, not the groping. The article complains that "sexualized environments" are bad, but Noirin sought out - and actively participated in - a sexualized environment and had no problem with it (the groping was a separate thing). Obviously there is a distinction to be made, but it's not clear what the distinction is...

Upvote for catching this, and I'm editing my post to be clearer, but: there's a world of difference between harmless flirting and attending a conference where the company hires strippers.

And the strippers aren't even at the party for sex.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#80

Post by robg »

ErrantX wrote: post #78
kolektiv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going for a kiss when someone has made no sign that they're in to you? When there are no signals that this is perhaps fine? No that's not cool! Brought the passes on herself? No. You can flirt with someone, if they don't reciprocate, it's not cool. First move = kiss is not flirting, it's massively inappropriate.

Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.

Depends on what you mean by a "pass".

Asking a woman if you can kiss her may feel hard, but looking back on my single teenage years, that's a whole lot easier than "going for a kiss".

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