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Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

theregister.co.uk

191–200 of 378 posts

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#191

So really, "Apple employee gets mildly harassed at airport because of proprietary confidentially agreements" with "A terrible, terrible tragedy, non US-citizen travellers agree" as a byline. The main thing of interest here would be that maybe Mozilla should employ better hiring practices.

Care to explain what you are trying to say? As you phrased your comment, it is entirely opaque to me what you intend to convey.

There seems to be a lot of concern and disdain in this thread about the treatment of a US citizen. The truth however is that non US citizens in the same circumstances can be, for all intents and purposes, "disappeared". If something concerns you as a US citizen, it should be that, not comical mishaps in the security circus happening to semi-famous people.

Also, Gal didn't make any sort of moral stand, he was simply defending his proprietary employer's interest. It's not the most sympathetic story.

So, in the end, the article only left me wondering how people who climb the ladder inside Mozilla, ostensibly an open and free environment, can easily end up at Apple, which revels in closed and proprietary environments. Maybe Mozilla should introduce some of the values they claim to hold into the hiring and promotion process.

Sorry for any confusion.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#192
post #120
post #39

It was my understanding that 5-th amendment protections against unreasonable searches are suspended at the border. That would certainly include customs at the airport. So, in a strict legal sense, demanding to unlock a device does not violate the 5th.

It sure shouldn’t be. Can you point to a law (it would have to be an amendment to the Constitution) that codifies this? As far as I know, it’s only practically a “constitutional exclusion zone”, not legally .

The fourth amendment has been interpreted by SCOTUS in such a way that certain things are "reasonable" near the border that would not be further away from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Martinez-Fuer...

SCOTUS is, for good and ill, the last word on what's Constitutional, until it changes its mind.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#193
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Border agents may lie about your rights? Is there no Miranda equivalent for this type of detainment?

There is not. Customs and Border Patrol operate under a special set of circumstances within ports of entry. You do not have the right to have an attorney present during the interrogation, you can have your personal belongings confiscated, you can be held without charge for up to four hours for any "reasonable" suspicion. These same rules apply within one hundred miles of the United States border. So if you live near…

You forgot "any international airport" on your list of ports of entry used to determine the 100-mile constitution-free zone.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#194
post #14

Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Non-c…

Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.

Canada is not exactly welcoming to visitor. Particularly visitors that may have a mark on their background check from any number of years ago. Good luck getting in at all -- its becoming a common mention in hip hop lyrics even.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#195
post #14

Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Non-c…

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#196
I love the creative writing and entitlement that comes through when someone has been wronged.

> Ex-Mozilla CTO

Has no more or less rights than anyone else.

> Techie says he was grilled for three hours

Clearly click bait 'grilled for three hours'. Not questioned but 'grilled'.

> "There I quickly found myself surrounded by three armed agents wearing bullet proof vests."

So what? Of course they were armed. Of course they had bullet proof vests. The sole purpose of using words like that (by a writer) is to get the goat of anyone reading and have them all up in arms about INJUSTICE of one type or another.

> They started to question me aggressively regarding my trip, my current employment, and my past work for Mozilla

What do you think? They should act like the concierge at the Four Seasons? Of course they are going to be aggressive. That's law enforcement attitude and there is a purpose for doing so.

> Given the devices were emblazoned with big red stickers reading "PROPERTY OF APPLE. PROPRIETARY," and he had signed confidentially agreements with Cupertino, Gal said he asked for permission to call his bosses and/or a lawyer to see if he would get into trouble by handing over access.

This is total BS. You don't need your bosses agreement when a request is made from Law Enforcement at least not because you signed some NDA etc. Fine that he attempted and asked. But the reason is weak.

> and threatened him with criminal charges should he not concede to the search

Cops are allowed to lie. Not sure what the story is with border agents but possibly the same. That is how they often get info.

> "My past work on encryption and online privacy is well documented, and so is my disapproval of the Trump administration and my history of significant campaign contributions to Democratic candidates,"

He is living in fantasy land here if he thinks there is some list of people that are being targeted for that reason. Not that it could happen but highly unlikely. It would take an entire Nixonian operation to pull that off. I think more likely since he came from a former communist state his thinking goes to this type of paranoia.

> Now, Gal has enlisted the help of the ACLU to probe into the brouhaha, and determine whether his civil rights were violated.

Yes everyone is looking either for more internet fame or a payout. Not sure why he needs to save the world and belabor the issue. Just move on and don't waste time.

> "Furthermore, CBP’s policies lack protections for First Amendment rights by allowing interrogation and device searches that may be based on a traveler’s political beliefs, activism, nation of origin, or identity."

Sounds like typical ACLU behavior for more publicity to aid fund raising (story on 60 Minutes):

https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/cm_lFZDERHcELSPw2...

ACLU got into high gear over Trump and sends out letters literally trying to raise money (I received one) clearly mentioning in so many words to take Trump down. Not the same organization that it used to be. On the 60 Minutes story iirc a former head of ACLU was interviewed and bothered by the current behavior.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#197
Abuse of power, indeed -- but he should have let Apple's lawyers sort out the proprietary device access issue after the fact. Pretty sure as Google employees the advice to us is to cooperate fully and then make sure lawyers know about it later. It's not worth compromising your own security and freedom on behalf of a corporation.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.

Alternatively, prefer to avoid bringing your own devices with you when you fly. Leave your laptop and smartphone at home, and rent temporary ones after you cross.

Nah , just backup and then wipe all your devices and then restore them after customs. (Kevin mitnick does this).

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#199
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing you to unlock a laptop or phone that doesnt have a battery would fall under a different legal precedent.

A forensic search would require reasonable suspicion. I'm not aware of any legal weight attached to batteries - what's the legal precedent you're thinking of?

Having a third party install anything new (i.e. battery) to the device that wasn't present when it was confiscated would put into question the integrity of anything found on the device.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not. Customs and Border Patrol operate under a special set of circumstances within ports of entry. You do not have the right to have an attorney present during the interrogation, you can have your personal belongings confiscated, you can be held without charge for up to four hours for any "reasonable" suspicion. These same rules apply within one hundred miles of the United States border. So if you live near…

> So if you live near the any ocean, Great Lakes, the Mexican border or Canadian border, you live under a different set of rights than the rest of America. Interesting. You'd think that "real America" was just a turn of phrase - turns out that it isn't, that there is a Real America and that it does care far more about protecting individual rights.

> there is a Real America and that it does care far more about protecting individual rights

No, there isn't. Civil rights get trampled regularly outside the 100 mile Constitution-free zone too, just under different pretexts.

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