Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

theregister.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 378 posts

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#91

Post by roywiggins »

rocqua wrote: post #39

It was my understanding that 5-th amendment protections against unreasonable searches are suspended at the border. That would certainly include customs at the airport. So, in a strict legal sense, demanding to unlock a device does not violate the 5th.

the ACLU complaint is based on the 4th amendment right against unreasonable search. He demanded to speak to his lawyer and was thereafter allowed to leave, so his 5th amendment rights were not actually abridged. That's how the 5th amendment works, and it worked at the border.

https://www.aclunc.org/docs/ACLU-NC_2019-03-28_Letter_re._El...

> CBP must ensure that its officers comply with the U.S. Constitution. Even at the border, the search of an electronic device is governed by the Fourth Amendment. To satisfy Ninth Circuit and Supreme Court law concerning electronic searches, any such search should be based on a warrant and be limited in scope to information relevant to the agency’s legitimate purpose in conducting the search. The attempted unconstitutional search of Dr. Gal’s devices illustrates that CBP’s policies do not in fact include the requirements necessary to safeguard the constitutional rights of people at the border

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#92

Post by Cerium »

Diederich wrote: post #84
thebooktocome wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, don't fly through the US to get to that conference in Canada.

Is it a risk if you stay in the airport, in the secure zone? (Whatever it's called...I've flown rarely over the past couple of decades.)

All flights that stop in the USA require all passengers to clear customs before continuing their journey.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#93

Post by ProAm »

maximilianroos wrote: post #68
ProAm wrote: post #65

It would be nice if phone and laptops had removable batteries, so we literally could not turn them on until we got to our destination and buy a new battery.

I would worry the resources of the US government may extend to spare batteries

Forcing you to unlock a laptop or phone that doesnt have a battery would fall under a different legal precedent.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#94

Post by roywiggins »

mcv wrote: post #82
criddell wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a lot of websites (like Facebook), that's a violation of their ToS and I'm not sure they can ask you to break a contract.

> I'm not sure they can ask you to break a contract. Are allowed to? Maybe, maybe not. Will do anyway? Probably yes.

I'm certain they're allowed to. If the SEC thinks your employer is committing fraud, and asks you to inform on them, do they care that you have an NDA? Not a chance.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#95

Post by alex_hitchins »

a012 wrote: post #28
alex_hitchins wrote: post #18

The message it sends to me is, never visit America. I appreciate horrible things likely happen in my own country, but this is just disgusting.

Or simply just leave yours at home, buy a burner phone on arrival.

I'd rather save my money and just not visit. I don't see anything that could out balance all the negatives. Many millions of Americans are lovely people who I'd donate a kidney to. I'd just not want to put myself through all that for so little gain.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#96

Post by DigiMortal »

saiya-jin wrote: post #64
DigiMortal wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is awesome, I appreciate and know how lucky we are to be here.

> America is awesome, I appreciate and know how lucky we are to be here. In which regard? Compared to which place?

We lead the world in R&D, we aren't in a surveillance state like China (~1.3B people), we aren't undeveloped, we have the US dollar - the commanding world currency. We develop the best military technology, space technology, most all technology. We issue the most patents, by far. We (as people) have more rights than most all other nations and we led many other rights to attain rights for their own citizens. We protect Europe and the West. We will continue leading the galaxy in space development. We have the best talent in the world. We are Earth's shining civilization.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#97

Post by abstractbarista »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #90
_8j7i wrote: post #75

"...he clammed up, taking the Fifth, and citing constitutional rights against unwarranted searches. ...border agents told him he had no constitutional nor any legal protections, and threatened him with criminal charges should he not concede to the search. ...he was eventually allowed to leave with his belongings, the devices still locked, and no charges were pressed." My goodness! I guess those protections did exit a…

> Make sure your devices are turned off prior to even leaving for the airport. Security may ask you to turn them back on, not to search them, but to verify that they are actual working devices, and not a bomb.

Very good point. The key here is to make sure your devices are all fully encrypted. Feel free to turn them on to prove they are real.

But never decrypt. If this results in you missing your flight, so be it.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#98

Post by adventured »

rocqua wrote: post #39

It was my understanding that 5-th amendment protections against unreasonable searches are suspended at the border. That would certainly include customs at the airport. So, in a strict legal sense, demanding to unlock a device does not violate the 5th.

> It was my understanding that 5-th amendment protections against unreasonable searches are suspended at the border. That would certainly include customs at the airport.

This isn't true and has never been backed up by a court ruling, including at the Supreme Court. Currently there is no legal foundation to the premise that any rights for US citizens are suspended just because you're at the border (typically people refer to the premise as also including N miles inside of the border, eg 100 or 300 miles).

Right now what you have is a few government agencies attempting to write over the Constitution, without anything to actually support their doing so. They go out of their way to avoid an actual court confrontation with their fake / invented 'laws,' knowing that they'll lose.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#99

Post by bluedino »

mikeash wrote: post #14

Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Non-c…

Isn't the device lock easily defeatable on the computer?

Hold shift or some other key combination when you boot and it boots into the 'real' machine, the other OS is just a dummy with generic search history and data.

Re: Ex-Mozilla CTO: I was grilled for three hours at US airport by border cops

#100

Post by falcor84 »

musha68k wrote: post #44
mikeash wrote: post #14

Quick reminder: US citizens have an absolute right to reenter the country. Customs can temporarily detain you, but they cannot refuse entry. Any threat, whether implied or stated, that they will hold you until you unlock your device is not real. They can hold your stuff indefinitely, so be prepared to lose it if you go this route, but never unlock your device based on the idea that it’s the only way to go free. Non-c…

Quick reminder: Non US citizens only go to conferences outside the US. There is no excuse we should put up with this. Canada and EU are much better locations for this reason alone.

Alternatively, prefer to avoid bringing your own devices with you when you fly. Leave your laptop and smartphone at home, and rent temporary ones after you cross.
Post reply on HN