Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 269 posts

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#251

Post by sgift »

tom_mellior wrote: post #151
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the US requires the same nonsense from EU citizens. Requiring it from theirs creates an incentive to dropping it.

No, it does not create an incentive for the US to drop ESTA. If they dropped it, that would create an asymmetry where where US citizens traveling to Europe are treated worse than Europeans traveling to the US. Hardly any American politician would want that. Introducing this nonsense in the EU means that it will be really hard for either side to drop it, since realistically both sides would have to negotiate to drop i…

> Introducing this nonsense in the EU means that it will be really hard for either side to drop it, since realistically both sides would have to negotiate to drop it together. That's harder than for the US to drop it now, unilaterally.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. The US had no incentive to drop it, so they wouldn't do it (they could have done it a long time ago if they wanted). Now, they have an incentive to think about it and talk to the EU about a treaty which drops it for both sides.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#252

Post by myrandomcomment »

felipelemos wrote: post #247
ardy42 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that there are no border controls beetween the EU countries in the Schengen Zone). In such case, should we also look at each US state individually (because they are also not uniform US states have no foreign relations. There's no Californian embassy in Sofia, but there is a Bulgarian embassy in Washington. No American travels on a Californi…

The United States of America is a entity comprised of several states, each one with it's own constitution and judicial court, while there is a central government with it's own constitution and juridical court. So does the European Union.

You are splitting hairs. As the other commenter said there is no formal foreign relationships between a US state and other nations. I cannot travel on a California passport. No US state has a seat in the UN, but the individual members of the EU do. I am not saying the EU is not correct for this change, but your argument does not hold up at all.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#253

Post by ajmurmann »

Youden wrote: post #225
ajmurmann wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need people to travel and get different perspectives more and not less. I too often see arguments in political discourse that something could never work, yet I've been to many countries where these things are normal. For example, I want all US citizens to experience a great pic transportation system so that we can elevate the discussion in the US about it. Likewise I want everyone to experience a Japanese city, so…

> In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. I get where you're coming from and agree that would be great for America but I really don't want mass migration of Americans to Europe. The number we have is enough. The culture is poisonous and already destroying America (see homelessness, healthcare, government shutdowns, racial conflicts, political divisions), we…

Unfortunately I think you make a good point. I vividly remember how during my most recent Japan visit I'd feel frequently embarrassed for other westerners who were either unwilling out unable to talk quietly in public and especially on trains. It almost physically hurt. Meanwhile I know Asians who've lived on the US since many years and still haven't figured out that it's bad behavior her to make loud chewing noises while eating. Maybe the majority of people just aren't interested in learning alternative ways to live.

It's honestly really hard for me to wrap my head around this, since hardly anything is more interesting to me than learning about other cultures, their different norms etc. It not only opens your eyes to how some things could be better but you also gain a fresh perspective on your own culture and yourself.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#254

Post by SllX »

mpweiher wrote: post #229
SllX wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you seem to be missing is that the EU is an organization that legally owes its existence to a series of treaties between 28 sovereign nations and the United States is one, single, sovereign nation under International law. This system of nations is really a post-Napoleon phenomenon and wasn’t solidified until after World War 2. If it had gone a different direction, maybe every American, German, Brazilian and Aust…

You are still missing the point that these are fairly arbitrary distinctions. The states of the US are actually quite independent, with much of the authority of the federal government being taken from the 'commerce clause', which is ... er ... "interesting" (and actually not that dissimilar to the EU deriving from the single market and customs union). Case in point: I have an EU driver's license. It is valid in the E…

These distinctions are only as arbitrary as the law, which can be very arbitrary but ultimately we have agreed to accept the Rule of Law, both my country and most likely yours.

Nations have agreed to fairly consistent diplomatic protocols and channels with which to treat each other. Hawaii can’t issue visas, but Japan can require Americans to apply for a visa. That isn’t just a stretch of the Commerce Clause, it is part of how and why the US Constitution was written the way it was: so individual States weren’t forming international interests contrary to the national interest.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#255

Post by ardy42 »

Scoundreller wrote: post #238
erentz wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. That sounds like a pretty crazy hole in the ETIAS plan, and your comment belongs more appropriately as a child of the original's in regard to the following: > - There is a separate dispute between EU and US, because US imposes visas on five EU states (Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus). According the EU law, all EU countries should be treated equally or otherwise reciprocal measures should apply. The…

That's how I'm assuming how ETIAS will be implemented: you're usually not eligible for visa-free travel if you're already a citizen. In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. But if it's the machine that's deciding these things based on the letter of the law, you might have a problem. Maybe E…

> In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name.

Wouldn't that be an unreliable test, since you could've renounced your citizenship or have been born to Canadian parents visiting Italy, since Italy is jus sanguinis [1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#256

Post by kyriakos »

torstenvl wrote: post #146
kyriakos wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any Bulgarian may go to any EU country and get employed, no questions asked. Citizenship is a different thing and I don't see how it's related to this discussion.

Small-state citizenship relates to the discussion as one point of comparison as to super-state unity. The United States really is one country, and is Constitutionally required to maintain unity, to have only one front for international affairs, and to allow U.S. citizens to be citizens of the state in which they reside. None of these is true in the EU. EU member states are permitted to leave. Each EU member state car…

I never said EU is one country but the OP said: "It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France". Which is false.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#257

Post by torstenvl »

kyriakos wrote: post #256
torstenvl wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small-state citizenship relates to the discussion as one point of comparison as to super-state unity. The United States really is one country, and is Constitutionally required to maintain unity, to have only one front for international affairs, and to allow U.S. citizens to be citizens of the state in which they reside. None of these is true in the EU. EU member states are permitted to leave. Each EU member state car…

I never said EU is one country but the OP said: "It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France". Which is false.

That is not correct. The quote is "It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France AND claim French citizenship compared to a Californian fully moving to Texas" (emphasis added).

In the interest of promoting honest discourse, please do not truncate people's statements. If a Californian "fully" moves to Texas, i.e., establishes domicile there, then they become a citizen of Texas. That is a key difference.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#258

Post by Const-me »

ardy42 wrote: post #211
rmind wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few points: - Tit-for-tat response is a geopolitical reality. Regardless whether you think it is pre-school model or not, this is what pretty much all countries do, as it is a perfectly rational way (and sometimes even the only way) to defend your interests. By rational I am talking about the Game Theory kind of rational. :) - You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that the…

> You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that there are no border controls beetween the EU countries in the Schengen Zone). In such case, should we also look at each US state individually (because they are also not uniform US states have no foreign relations. There's no Californian embassy in Sofia, but there is a Bulgarian embassy in Washington. No American travels on a Californi…

> EU member-state embassies should probably be closed and replaced with EU embassies

It's fairly close to how it works. If you live in Montenegro and need any EU visa, you go to Slovenian embassy. Even if you'll visit Spain or Ireland.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#259

Post by Scoundreller »

ardy42 wrote: post #255
Scoundreller wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how I'm assuming how ETIAS will be implemented: you're usually not eligible for visa-free travel if you're already a citizen. In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. But if it's the machine that's deciding these things based on the letter of the law, you might have a problem. Maybe E…

> In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. Wouldn't that be an unreliable test, since you could've renounced your citizenship or have been born to Canadian parents visiting Italy, since Italy is jus sanguinis [1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law

Correct, but the point was the border police never bothered to inquire. Even the US let’s you renounce your jus soli citizenship.

Now you may have to state Yes/No to a question about other citizenships, when the best answer for a lot of Americans (a nation of immigrants) will be “Don’t know for sure, maybe”.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#260

Post by masonic »

logifail wrote: post #198
Scoundreller wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Sometimes with little restriction by the paternal line. Being born in the US to Croatian parents will make you a citizen of both countries, no application required. Croatia may not know about it, but you…

> Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Automatically ? Source?

There are also cases where a US-born may be eligible for other citizenship but must apply. (Ireland, for example, if either parent was Irish.)
Post reply on HN