US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#141

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

tapppi wrote: post #79

benj111 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know ETIAS doesn't affect intra EU travel. My point was we have both experienced the benefits of unencumbered travel (within the EU), why then support raising barriers to other nations? Security and illegal migration seem dubious reasons to introduce (not) visas for the US. Is there a problem with illegal immigrants from the US? Terrorists? So then we're just left with tit for tat politics. I for one would like my…

ETIAS applies to all travelers to the EU from all visa-free countries. So it isn't a "punishment" for US specifically. It is a generic change to how EU handles visa-free travel. One might argue that e-visas (which the ETIAS is) are bad for free movement of people in general. In my opinion if ETIAS (and similar systems in other countries) make traditional visas move toward obsolescence by allowing traditional-visa-fre…

The US’ ESTA system exempts Canadians. So such systems are definitely capable of picking and choosing.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#142

Post by erentz » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 4:55 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #127

erentz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would they do that given US states do not have citizens or passports?

Use state of birth, if it's encoded on the passports, and if not, require a visa from everyone until state of birth is encoded on the passports. As a point of order, US states do have citizens. As a US citizen, I'm also a citizen of the state in which I reside.

So someone born in Morocco who moved to France and became a French citizen should be denied visa free entry to the US because their citizenship by your standard is actually Moroccan.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#143

Post by sgc » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #127

erentz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would they do that given US states do not have citizens or passports?

Use state of birth, if it's encoded on the passports, and if not, require a visa from everyone until state of birth is encoded on the passports. As a point of order, US states do have citizens. As a US citizen, I'm also a citizen of the state in which I reside.

You are a resident, not citizen of your state. Citizenship as defined means being a member of a country. Passport and visa regimes are based on that.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#144

Post by sgc » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

rmind wrote: post #105

zamfi wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an EU citizen who wants for “EU countries should be treated equally”, you might want to start at home — Schengen doesn’t include (some of) the countries you listed and citizens of (some of) those countries don’t have the same work rights across the EU itself already. It feels like major hypocrisy to ask the US to treat nationals from those countries equally when the EU itself does not.

Poland is in the Schengen Area. Cyprus is divided since Turkish invasion, so it is somewhat a special case. Other countries joined the EU relatively recently. However, all four countries are legally obliged to join the Schengen Area, they just have to fulfil certain requirements. Without going into all details.. don't you think it kind of makes sense? If you want to join an area without border controls, then for exam…

But doesn't it seem hypocritical to push for equal treatment externally when those requirements have not been met? EU processes like this one can take decades to iron out.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#145

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

When scenario that really has really caused issues in the Canadian system is that they required Canadian permanent residents and Canadian work permit holders to travel with those permits.

They were ineligible for the Canadian ETIAS.

But if they lost their permits while overseas, it could take weeks for a new permit, meanwhile a Canadian passport holder could get a new one in 24hrs.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#146

Post by torstenvl » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

kyriakos wrote: post #110

hartator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is EU is still not a country. It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France and claim French citizenship compared to a Californian fully moving to Texas.

Any Bulgarian may go to any EU country and get employed, no questions asked. Citizenship is a different thing and I don't see how it's related to this discussion.

Small-state citizenship relates to the discussion as one point of comparison as to super-state unity.

The United States really is one country, and is Constitutionally required to maintain unity, to have only one front for international affairs, and to allow U.S. citizens to be citizens of the state in which they reside.

None of these is true in the EU. EU member states are permitted to leave. Each EU member state carries on its own foreign relations. Each EU citizen maintains citizenship in the EU member state of his or her birth.

The EU is not at all analogous to the United States after the Constitution of 1798 and post-Texas v. White. There might be an argument that it's similar to the United States under the Articles of Confederation. Any insistance that they are more similar is a false equivalency. That is the point of GP.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#147

Post by asabjorn » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

rmind wrote: post #10

The article mixes two seaparate issues: - EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty much modeled after the US ESTA system (used by visa-free nationals). It will apply to all countries which currently enjoy the visa-free regime with the EU and that includes USA. So, technically it is not a visa, but your details will be pre-checked and it will cost €7 (compared to $14 for US ESTA). Ir…

If you try to look for a cause the countries in question seem to be in the EU block that is the source of much within-EU immigration tension. Immigrating to the US legally is hard, and for someone with few opportunities in their home countries the incentives are higher to find a way to work immigrate to the US. Legal or otherwise. Incentives are different in each direction because working illegally in the rich EU countries is almost impossible, while it is normal in the US.

If there is an underlying issue of overstaying when people come from some EU countries where there is an economic incentive to go to the US, then one can understand that the US will respond by imposing visa requirements to ameliorate that.

Therefore if overstaying is not a concern when going from the US to the EU then imposing the same requirement in reverse is more of an emotional concern, which might be the right choice if ones goal is to have the EU act as a whole emotionally.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#148

Post by dontbenebby » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

nyrulez wrote: post #133

dontbenebby wrote: post #102

It sounds like this e-visa is good for 3 years... does that mean hypothetically I could go digital nomad in Schengen Area as a US citizen?

If you conduct business or "work", you might have to get a separate visa with different terms. EU seems to be pretty strict about "work-permits". There are risks to doing such activities on a regular tourist visa.

I was under the impression if you're employed by a US company and simply traveling you're fine. The EU has a pretty strict definition of "working" - eg checking an email from your boss on vacation in Berlin is technically working.

I think what would run afoul is if you're doing journalism, photography, or something where you're doing the work in th EU, versus firing up a corporate VPN and writing code on a US server for a US company.

(Keep in mind you can do things like go to meetings or attend conferences w/o a special visa in the EU and Canada currently)

I suspect in the long term "digital nomad" visas will become a thing. After all, if someone wants to work in say, Tokyo or Talinn for 2 years in their early 20s, and is willing to pay Japanese or Estonian taxes, that could be a win win. You get someone in a high tax bracket bringing money in, and presumably buying other things (eating out, rent etc).

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#149

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

erentz wrote: post #100

learc83 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people from Hawaii were overstaying in Japan, the US wouldn't be fine with Japan requiring visas for residents of Hawaii. Part of the purpose of the EU is to present a united front when dealing with other countries. Collective bargaining doesn't work if you don't act collectively. >If US travelers are overstaying in any particular EU countries. The only way to do this would be to require Visas to the whole EU beca…

In that case there should be no such thing as a Croatian passport or a Polish passport. Or Croatian citizenship (etc.). Feels like there’s a fair bit of eating cake and having it too going on here.

Oh great. Tons of 2nd generation Canadians and Americans are Polish and Croat citizens by lineage. It’ll probably be illegal for them to apply for an ETIAS, and it’ll take a year to get a PL or HR passport.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#150

Post by sgc » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #115

ajmurmann wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need people to travel and get different perspectives more and not less. I too often see arguments in political discourse that something could never work, yet I've been to many countries where these things are normal. For example, I want all US citizens to experience a great pic transportation system so that we can elevate the discussion in the US about it. Likewise I want everyone to experience a Japanese city, so…

Keep in mind that not everyone wants others to experience their country. If everybody went to Bhutan, it’d lose everything that makes it unique. If a country imposed a visa policy on other countries, most of the time, they do it based on some degree of reason (although some are definitely petty bullshit reasons). And visas aren’t even really a hindrance for Americans going to Europe or most countries. They’ll be stam…

I think the point was that work should be reciprocally permitted. That is probably the most basic difference between visiting somewhere and living there.